Rail Observations 2023

[BAMBAM]

Appears the rollout of ATP enabled Tangaras has begun. Noticed the inside driving trailers of a T108 and T110 on a T4 service both had large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers on their front aprons. Same style as the Tangara prototype ATP set that has been around for a few years, first time noticed on a set in revenue service.

Started quite a few months ago, I’d reckon about half of them already have it. Apparently the idea is to run them in semi- permanent sets which probably means the end of 4 car Tangara services to Port Kembla. But with the NIF delay, I’d say those last sets will stick around for a bit more until the OSCars are transferred over.

Just to clarify, there are currently two type of Tangara trains running around, non ATP and ATP installed (TTU) train. When you mentioned that half already have it, all Tangara trains have ATP fitted cabinets installed, but no actual ATP equipment installed. The Tangara trains that have large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, those Tangara are ATP installed trains, with active ATP equipment installed and running, however it’s still in testing mode as faults are still occurring so drivers are not driving in ATP mode yet.

With the non atp Tangara, common clues are no large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers in the middle carriages as well Terminal Ends cab have not been modified.

With ATP installed trains known as (TTU) on crew diagrams, common clues are large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, as well Terminal End cabs having modifications including ATP equipment installed, crew doors having blinds as well window stickers to eliminate sun glare for crew when driving.

Eventually, the aim will be to have all non ATP Tangara modified to those ATP installed Tangaras as seen by large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, but it will take some time as nothing can be done in one day especially when they are needed in service.

[Transtopic]

If it's good enough for Metro Northwest to ultimately stop all stations to the CBD and the SW Metro from Bankstown to similarly stop all stations, then why not other short distance lines on the existing Sydney Trains' network? For example, the North Shore Line doesn't warrant skip/stop services when greater frequency could be provided to all stations and with a faster service with the proposed digital signaling upgrades. The same goes for the T2, T4 and T9 Lines. The time savings with a skip/stop pattern are only minimal in these circumstances.

The metro's commercial speeds are significantly higher than those of the suburbans. This enables it to make quite quick journeys with an all-stops pattern. To achieve the same on a suburban line, you'd not only need the digital signalling, but a return to single deck trains, preferably with three doors per car per side. I'd like to see this happen as a decent alternative to having to convert lines to metro to get them working efficiently.

Rubbish. As you usually do, you're comparing a metro line with the existing slowed down Sydney Trains timetable, which will potentially allow faster journey times with the digital upgrades and which you never acknowledge because it doesn't suit your narrative. We have been over all this before, and while I'm loath to regurgitate it, the latest Waratah DD rolling stock has similar acceleration/deceleration specifications approaching that of the metro stock, but never utilised, as well as a much higher maximum service speed which can give it an advantage on the longer express journeys where quad track is available.

On the shorter distance services, the metro may be marginally faster than an all stations DD service with the digital upgrades, but is it worth the expenditure and disruption in converting existing lines to metro and the incompatibility that goes with it? I think not. New segregated metro lines are a completely different matter.

[Swift]

Are the NIFs suffering accelerated deterioration sitting out in the open for years now, or are they rotated frequently between being undercover and outside? Lack of movement leads to deterioration, especially out of shade. It would be tragic to see some units showing signs.of corrosion, fading colours and warped plastics on the first day of revenue service.
The Liberals missed out on launching them because they couldn't help trying to push boundaries.

[Merc1107]

As you usually do, you're comparing a metro line with the existing slowed down Sydney Trains timetable, which will potentially allow faster journey times with the digital upgrades and which you never acknowledge because it doesn't suit your narrative. We have been over all this before, and while I'm loath to regurgitate it, the latest Waratah DD rolling stock has similar acceleration/deceleration specifications approaching that of the metro stock, but never utilised, as well as a much higher maximum service speed which can give it an advantage on the longer express journeys where quad track is available.

I don't think anyone is specifically debating the acceleration, deceleration or top speed of the current double-deck rolling stock, or at least I can't recall having seen that aspect of their performance trotted out. What I do recall seeing is discussion whether double-deck trains with just two doors and a big focus on seating availability, are suitable for the shorter-distance, all-stops journeys around Sydney where dwell times are of particular importance.

[Swift]

It's all about average speeds that can be achieved in real world conditions, not top speed or best acceleration on paper. Will the real world catch up on the legacy network, assuming metro doesn't divert resources away from that goal, assuming that goal is there and attainable?

[Randomness]

It wouldn’t catch up unless :
- Automation is implemented (drivers do like to be a little cautious when braking to ensure they don’t overshoot, while a computer knows exactly where to brake). Preferably path restricted places like the City Circle would have the equipment.
- As Tony says, we return to a single deck 3 door layout for stopping services to reduce dwell times and maximise passenger flow.
- We reduce door blocking hoons who like to think of themselves as hip and funny.

[alleve]

It wouldn’t catch up unless :
- Automation is implemented (drivers do like to be a little cautious when braking to ensure they don’t overshoot, while a computer knows exactly where to brake). Preferably path restricted places like the City Circle would have the equipment.
- As Tony says, we return to a single deck 3 door layout for stopping services to reduce dwell times and maximise passenger flow.
- We reduce door blocking hoons who like to think of themselves as hip and funny.

I've never seen anyone block a door on a train for the purpose of trying to be hip and/or funny but assuming these people do exist how do you propose to go about getting rid of them?

[Randomness]

I've never seen anyone block a door on a train for the purpose of trying to be hip and/or funny but assuming these people do exist how do you propose to go about getting rid of them?

Happens on the T3 quite often from what I’ve observed. On Waratahs, there’s now a “this train cannot depart until the doors are closed” announcement, and the guard usually points out offenders even if it doesn’t do anything in the end.

I don’t know how doors now detect obstructions, but I’m assuming it’s through lasers. Maybe if those tolerances are reduced to a few cm, it’ll discourage people from sticking their arms out to block doors from closing. If we were more strict about enforcement of railway rules that might also help, but then there’d be the “police state” crowd. Can’t win to be honest.

[Swift]

I'm surprised other commuters don't give them the thumping of their lives. I'd be livid.

[BAMBAM]

I'm surprised other commuters don't give them the thumping of their lives. I'd be livid.

Because with social media and everyone having phones these days, the person doing the thumping will end up losing their job and going to jail. One wrong does not make another wrong right.

[tonyp]

I don’t know how doors now detect obstructions, but I’m assuming it’s through lasers. Maybe if those tolerances are reduced to a few cm, it’ll discourage people from sticking their arms out to block doors from closing. If we were more strict about enforcement of railway rules that might also help, but then there’d be the “police state” crowd. Can’t win to be honest.

Obviously not sensitive enough for the lady at Auburn whose handbag got caught in the door, she was dragged, somehow escaping the attention of both the guard and platform flag waver, severely injured and got over a million bucks compensation from Sydney Trains. Platform screen doors should deal with this issue satisfactorily. Now where have I seen those?

[Swift]

I'm surprised other commuters don't give them the thumping of their lives. I'd be livid.

One wrong does not make another wrong right.

It's all about context to me. It depends I the order the wrongs took place!

[boronia]

Doors are often controlled by:
a) pressure sensors with detection at the door edges or in the drive mechanism, which will prevent the door closing and perhaps reopening it, if any obstruction is encountered.
b) position sensors in the fully closed position, connected to an interlock system.

[BAMBAM]

One wrong does not make another wrong right.

It's all about context to me. It depends I the order the wrongs took place!

Not anymore In this woke society, the police and judge will punish you more than the first offender who is just blocking doors.

[moa999]

That sort of thing is always a juggling act.

More service for some passengers is a slower trip for others.

And the more total services you have to run (as patronage grows) the harder it is to schedule expresses unless you go down the path of adding dedicated track.

Had patronage dropped that much to allow them to add back expresses?

[Transtopic]

Just to clarify, there are currently two type of Tangara trains running around, non ATP and ATP installed (TTU) train. When you mentioned that half already have it, all Tangara trains have ATP fitted cabinets installed, but no actual ATP equipment installed. The Tangara trains that have large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, those Tangara are ATP installed trains, with active ATP equipment installed and running, however it’s still in testing mode as faults are still occurring so drivers are not driving in ATP mode yet.

With the non atp Tangara, common clues are no large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers in the middle carriages as well Terminal Ends cab have not been modified.

With ATP installed trains known as (TTU) on crew diagrams, common clues are large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, as well Terminal End cabs having modifications including ATP equipment installed, crew doors having blinds as well window stickers to eliminate sun glare for crew when driving.

Eventually, the aim will be to have all non ATP Tangara modified to those ATP installed Tangaras as seen by large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, but it will take some time as nothing can be done in one day especially when they are needed in service.

Is there provision for the ATP upgraded Tangaras to have ATO installed in the future, as it seems they're still going to be around for a while?

[Transtopic]

It's all about average speeds that can be achieved in real world conditions, not top speed or best acceleration on paper. Will the real world catch up on the legacy network, assuming metro doesn't divert resources away from that goal, assuming that goal is there and attainable?

It was stated by TfNSW under the previous government that the proposed introduction of the digital signalling and ATO upgrade would increase frequencies and reduce journey times. These upgrades will enable the DD stock like the Waratahs to make greater use of their inherent design specifications which are currently not being fully utilised. A faster journey is a faster journey, no matter how it's achieved, and which translates into higher average speeds with the new technology and also makes allowance for dwell times.

Contracts have already been awarded to Siemens Mobility for the first stage on T4, so I don't think there is any question about it being implemented. It hasn't received much publicity, but it's a long term plan which will eventually be rolled out across the whole electrified network including Intercity lines.

[BAMBAM]

Just to clarify, there are currently two type of Tangara trains running around, non ATP and ATP installed (TTU) train. When you mentioned that half already have it, all Tangara trains have ATP fitted cabinets installed, but no actual ATP equipment installed. The Tangara trains that have large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, those Tangara are ATP installed trains, with active ATP equipment installed and running, however it’s still in testing mode as faults are still occurring so drivers are not driving in ATP mode yet.

With the non atp Tangara, common clues are no large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers in the middle carriages as well Terminal Ends cab have not been modified.

With ATP installed trains known as (TTU) on crew diagrams, common clues are large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, as well Terminal End cabs having modifications including ATP equipment installed, crew doors having blinds as well window stickers to eliminate sun glare for crew when driving.

Eventually, the aim will be to have all non ATP Tangara modified to those ATP installed Tangaras as seen by large ‘Non ATP cab’ stickers, but it will take some time as nothing can be done in one day especially when they are needed in service.

Is there provision for the ATP upgraded Tangaras to have ATO installed in the future, as it seems they're still going to be around for a while?

Probably not, depending on Labor if they order new trains, considering they are promoting locally made trains.

[Transtopic]

It wouldn’t catch up unless :
- Automation is implemented (drivers do like to be a little cautious when braking to ensure they don’t overshoot, while a computer knows exactly where to brake). Preferably path restricted places like the City Circle would have the equipment.
- As Tony says, we return to a single deck 3 door layout for stopping services to reduce dwell times and maximise passenger flow.
- We reduce door blocking hoons who like to think of themselves as hip and funny.

As I alluded to in my previous post, automation is definitely being implemented to Grade of Automation Level 2 (GoA2), where the driver opens and closes doors and starts the train, which then runs automatically including stopping at predetermined points on platforms, which could potentially allow for the installation of PSDs at the busier stations. This is already being trialed on T4 between Redfern and Bondi Junction and Sutherland and Cronulla.

Whether guards are retained is still to be resolved, but I can't see them winning out in the long run as their current role would become redundant with upgraded safety infrastructure. This will happen whether under a Labor or Liberal government. Labor isn't as beholden to the RTBU as some like to make out and have had their differences in the past.

There is no prospect of single deck trains being reintroduced on the existing network for the foreseeable future, if ever. The next fleet replacement will be for the Tangaras and with the current upgrade program, they are likely to be around for another couple of decades. What happens as they are retired is anyone's guess, as there hasn't been any determination whether they would be SD or DD. Future metro conversions of the existing network, as distinct from new segregated metro lines, are still up in the air and you'd have to question whether the expense and disruption would be worth it for only marginal benefit compared with the far less expensive proposed digital and ATO upgrades.

In the meantime, and getting back to the original discussion point, the proposed technology upgrades to the existing DD network will create the potential for implementing single all stations stopping patterns and increasing frequencies on the shorter inner city line services, with minimal if any increase in overall journey times compared with the current skip/stop patterns.

[boronia]

Probably not, depending on Labor if they order new trains, considering they are promoting locally made trains.

While Minns has promised to build the "new Tangaras" in NSW he hasn't said when. In view of the current budget squeezing, I doubt it will be any time soon.

[Transtopic]

Probably not, depending on Labor if they order new trains, considering they are promoting locally made trains.

While Minns has promised to build the "new Tangaras" in NSW he hasn't said when. In view of the current budget squeezing, I doubt it will be any time soon.

Agree, particularly having regard to the Tangara upgrades.

[Glen]

On Tuesday 3 October due to trackwork during the midday off peak the Metro will only run every 30 minutes.

That's quite a reduction from 10 minutes.

The same will apply after 8pm.

[Fleet Lists]

According to this alert https://transportnsw.info/alerts/details#/ems-22492 this is due to happen on 3, 4 and 5 October.

Incident activity

Oct 3, 9:20am - 3:00pm
Oct 3, 8:25pm - Oct 4, 2:00am
Oct 4, 9:20am - 3:00pm
Oct 4, 8:25pm - Oct 5, 2:00am
Oct 5, 9:20am - 3:00pm
Oct 5, 8:25pm - Oct 6, 2:00am

Details
Tuesday 3 to Thursday 5 October

Daily from 9.20am to 3pm and nightly from 8.25pm, some metro services will run to a reduced frequency between Tallawong and Chatswood.
Plan your trip before you travel for up-to-date real time information. You can also subscribe to planned trackwork alerts

But is does not mention a specific 30 minutes.

[Fleet Lists]

But the trip finder shows every 30 minutes during the above times.

[Aurora]

The trip data indeed shows every 30 minutes 0925-1425 from Tallawong and 1007-1507 from Chatswood from Tuesday to Friday.