Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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boronia
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Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by boronia »

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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Stonesourscotty »

London recoups 91 percent of money? No its heavily subsidised by other poorer areas. Smh and their bs as usual.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Merc1107 »

Stonesourscotty wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 4:33 pmLondon recoups 91 percent of money? No its heavily subsidised by other poorer areas. Smh and their bs as usual.
Wouldn't be so sure on that - a lot of the UK is completely deregulated and operators have to be able to turn a profit to stay in the game. London was outsourced much later, and my understanding is they used a competitive tendering model to avoid a repeat of the 1980s "bus wars".

Part of making public transport profitable, if that is desired, is not necessarily the cost of fares, but the ability to grow usage with the same resources, vs having to constantly increase funding. As an outsider, I cannot grasp the need for Sydney's complicated structure of fare caps, transfer penalties and different fares for different modes vs a simpler zonal, distance-based or even flat fare. Perhaps this complexity also explains the apathy and even outrage of the public when their buses are restructured to encourage interchanging?
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Mr OC Benz »

Those farebox recovery numbers quoted for overseas cities are most likely pre-covid numbers. I have heard the around 90% figure quoted for London multiple times. Covid will have had a significant dent on farebox recovery without significant austerity measures, so it would be hard to believe that cities like London could still be achieving such high recovery when patronage is still subdued.

Not sure on the Sydney figures but I have a hunch they are not comparing apples with apples (I suspect the numbers being quoted for Sydney are more recent since the pandemic began).
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Linto63 »

Stonesourscotty wrote: London recoups 91 percent of money? No its heavily subsidised by other poorer areas. Smh and their bs as usual.
SMH is correct, in 2014 TFL recovered 91% of operational costs. In 2018 it was 78% for buses and about 140% for the Underground.
Merc1107 wrote: Wouldn't be so sure on that - a lot of the UK is completely deregulated and operators have to be able to turn a profit to stay in the game.
Transport for London bares the revenue risk with the service provision contracted out and thus the operators not at risk of losing money if patronage declines. Much the same way that it is in all of the Australian capital cities except it tenders routes individually rather than by regions.

London Bus Contracting and Tendering Process
Mr OC Benz wrote: Not sure on the Sydney figures but I have a hunch they are not comparing apples with apples (I suspect the numbers being quoted for Sydney are more recent since the pandemic began).
Sydney's recovery rate is usually qioted as 20 to 25%. The crux of the SMH article is that the traditional sources of finance for infrastructure projects, budget surpluses, selling assets and federal grants, is drying up. Farebox revenue hasn't contributed to any of the current government's projects. Capital and recurrent spend have always had separate budgets.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by moa999 »

Is not a surprise that our intercity trains have the lowest cost recovery, with their super cheap fares per km.
And even cheaper weekly cap

But can't see how anyone is getting any decent numbers at the moment with Covid impacts still impacting usage.
Last edited by moa999 on Mon May 16, 2022 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by gilberations »

Public Transportation is a Service, not a Business. It’s not designed to run for a profit. I’d honestly like to know what the cost saving would be if all public transportation was paid for by tax dollars (which it already is) and you remove the requirement to pay for each journey.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Randomness »

Wonder how finances would look if FreightCorp were still around. Also can't help but think the proposed fare raises are an attempt to get motorway numbers up (thanks to the guys at TransUrban).
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by boronia »

gilberations wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 8:53 pm Public Transportation is a Service, not a Business. It’s not designed to run for a profit. I’d honestly like to know what the cost saving would be if all public transportation was paid for by tax dollars (which it already is) and you remove the requirement to pay for each journey.
Good possibility that if it was free, demand would go up and more resources would have to be thrown at it.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Merc1107 »

That last 20-30% difference between the subsidy and cost of operation is not an insignificant amount of public money.

A couple of the cities in and around Europe that experimented with a fare-free regime wound up reintroducing fares, for a variety of factors that included spiralling costs associated with adding services (there was a mode shift away from walking and cycling, rather than driving), and wanting to control the phenomenon known as "the tragedy of the commons."

Closer to home, periods of fare free travel, such as that seen in Hobart recently have not lifted patronage in line with the reduction in the fare, even with favourable external conditions like high petrol prices and tight household budgets. This suggests public transport is highly price inelastic; despite many non-users making the excuse it is "too expensive", the service is evidently inferior to their favoured mode of transport. So rather than worrying about subsidy levels or profit, we should be foccusing on controlling costs by efficient service provision - which also seems to create the type of service people will want to use (frequent, direct, connects with other modes, and serves multiple points of interest). More use with the same funding translates to higher revenue, and therefore a lower operating subsidy.

Dare I mention it, but acquiring and deploying the right vehicles to do the job plays a part in this, too - both in terms of efficiently servicing demand, and reducing ongoing service costs (whether acquisition, labour, maintenance or all of the above).
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by boronia »

A lot of people don’t use public transport because it is not convenient for their needs. Making it free would not make it any more convenient.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:14 pm A lot of people don’t use public transport because it is not convenient for their needs. Making it free would not make it any more convenient.
With the south coast line I would swing the pointer past the zero onto the side where they have to pay me to use it.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by Glen »

tonyp wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:44 pm
boronia wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:14 pm A lot of people don’t use public transport because it is not convenient for their needs. Making it free would not make it any more convenient.
With the south coast line I would swing the pointer past the zero onto the side where they have to pay me to use it.
Have you worked out your 'fare' yet? :lol:
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by GriffinRoads1 »

:lol: If fares increase I'm going to be expecting a repeat of "Tramsurance" in Melbourne.
I prefer my catches rare.
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Re: Sydney public transport revenue ‘stagnating’ as costs mount

Post by tonyp »

Glen wrote: Tue May 17, 2022 12:14 am
tonyp wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 10:44 pm
With the south coast line I would swing the pointer past the zero onto the side where they have to pay me to use it.
Have you worked out your 'fare' yet? :lol:
For starters, the chiropractor's fee.
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