Railway Observations for 2022.

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Unlike any of the other lines out of Sydney, the South Coast has a major regional city located halfway (at 80 kms) along the line, one that acts as a strong focus for commuting itself.
Gosford is reasonable passenger generator on the Newcastle line.
tonyp wrote: There's definitely a strong case for a train service that's dedicated to linking Shoalhaven and Greater Wollongong on their own, let alone Sydney.
They are linked already, the hop across the platform at Kiama is hardly arduous, much easier than Hamilton where services from Sydney and to Maitland connect. Running a two-car set through to Sydney is a fairly inefficient use of resources, as it is with the Bathurst and Goulburn services.
boronia wrote: From memory, there are to be less "outer suburban" cars in the new order than there are current Endeavours?
10 x 3 car CAF sets vs 14 x 2 car Endeavours, so longer, but potentially less frequent services, unless it is planned to use them more intensively.
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BroadGauge
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by BroadGauge »

Aurora wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:16 pm This is not the case. Just like last year during lockdown, the weekday timetable will operate for diesel powered services (although a couple of services will be cut from the Southern Highlands line to help manage reduced manpower availability).
Tripview is showing a Saturday timetable operating on SHL every weekday next week, with the addition of the one morning Moss Vale - Central through service extended to start from Goulburn at 8:33am, and the afternoon 4:08pm Central - Moss Vale service extended to Goulburn.

Bomaderry also has a weekend timetable running every day according to Tripview, as well as the 737 bus running as usual, which mostly seems to duplicate the few trips the train runs rather than offer many additional connections at Kiama, as it's designed to fill gaps in the weekday timetable.
Linto63 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:30 pm Gosford is reasonable passenger generator on the Newcastle line.
Generator of what, commuters to Sydney? I wouldn't consider it to be much of a "city".
tonyp
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by tonyp »

Central Coast, though having a population matching Greater Wollongong, isn't an active city in the sense that Wollongong is - more a passive dormitory for Sydney and, to a lesser extent, Newcastle. Wollongong, on the other hand, is such a significant and complex centre that it even generates counter-commuting from Sydney (particularly southern and south-eastern Sydney). Gosford would have very little of that.

I don't know that a direct diesel service between Sydney and Bomaderry is justified. Very few commute that far entirely by rail. However, there is certainly justification for a dedicated service between Wollongong and Bomaderry (skipping Coniston, Unanderra, Albion Park Rail, Minnamurra and Bombo) to overcome the retarding effects of both the break at Kiama and the slowness of the electric service.

However, there's no doubt that to get the best out of this it would have to go together with duplication between Unanderra and Shellharbour. A comparison with road highlights the extent of the problem between Kiama and Wollongong.

Bomaderry-Kiama is 34 km and 27 minutes by rail and 38 km and 25 minutes by road. Even the present train service already makes a good account of itself over this section, but any advantage is completely destroyed on the transfer wait at Kiama.

Wollongong-Kiama is 36 km and anything between about 40 and 50 minutes (not even a consistent journey time) by rail and 41 km and 25 minutes by road. This section is plainly a disaster by rail.
Linto63
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Little wonder that the road trip from Wollongong to Kiama is quicker now that Albion Park has been bypassed and it is 110km/h end to end, although Google Maps calculates it at 33 minutes railway station to railway station. As it stands, there isn't the DMU stock to operate any more services, and with fewer trains to replace them, appears there won't be any scope when they are replaced.

Train services appear to have a fairly consistent 40 minute journey time except for a few contra-peak services that are slowed down by having to pass an additional train in the opposite direction.
tonyp
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:15 am Little wonder that the road trip from Wollongong to Kiama is quicker now that Albion Park has been bypassed and it is 110km/h end to end, although Google Maps calculates it at 33 minutes railway station to railway station. As it stands, there isn't the DMU stock to operate any more services, and with fewer trains to replace them, appears there won't be any scope when they are replaced.

Train services appear to have a fairly consistent 40 minute journey time except for a few contra-peak services that are slowed down by having to pass an additional train in the opposite direction.
The motorway speed limit south of Bulli Tops is 100 km/h. The objective and effect of completion of the motorway and bypasses right through has been to ensure that peak trips take the same time as off-peak trips and that the road design is safer. The only gain in journey time between Wollongong and Bomaderry has been five minutes off as a result of the Foxground and Berry bypass, reducing the trip between Wollongong CBD and Bomaderry from 55 to 50 minutes (don't believe Google maps). There is no journey time gain from the APR bypass (except in peaks) or the carriageway augmentation between Berry and Bomaderry.

So the road trip isn't going to improve any further, which is an excellent opportunity for the rail to improve itself and it has quite a decent alignment on which to do that.
Linto63
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: The motorway speed limit south of Bulli Tops is 100 km/h.
I stand corrected.
tonyp wrote: The objective and effect of completion of the motorway and bypasses right through has been to ensure that peak trips take the same time as off-peak trips and that the road design is safer.
The Albion Park bypass does add some distance to the journey, but barreling along at 100km/h is much better than stop-start 80km/h.
tonyp wrote: So the road trip isn't going to improve any further, which is an excellent opportunity for the rail to improve itself and it has quite a decent alignment on which to do that.
Was in the Labor Party's 2019 election manifesto, although does appear to have been rather optimistically priced.
tonyp
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by tonyp »

The old highway through APR is now like a ghost town and you're unlucky if you get even one traffic light, which now cycles quickly. So it's 6 minutes through APR by the old highway and 6 minutes by the bypass (which is 3 km longer). There is a difference for peak period drivers of course, that's the biggest outcome.

Labor's promise was about the Wollongong-Sydney section. Wollongong-Kiama is a political Cinderella, except that you'd think the Member for Kiama would take an interest.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Aurora »

BroadGauge wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:47 pm
Aurora wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 6:16 pm This is not the case. Just like last year during lockdown, the weekday timetable will operate for diesel powered services (although a couple of services will be cut from the Southern Highlands line to help manage reduced manpower availability).
Tripview is showing a Saturday timetable operating on SHL every weekday next week, with the addition of the one morning Moss Vale - Central through service extended to start from Goulburn at 8:33am, and the afternoon 4:08pm Central - Moss Vale service extended to Goulburn.
I have checked the timetable itself, the timetable shows trains departing Campbelltown at roughly the same times as the regular weekday timetable. There are three trains from the normal weekday timetable cancelled both ways. From Campbelltown, 1120, 1550 and 1908 not running.

Edit: Just to clarify the diesels are split up. Highlands and Bomaderry services work to the weekday timetable, the Hunter and Bathurst work to Sunday timetable.
Last edited by Aurora on Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Scott4570
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Scott4570 »

Linto63 wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:30 pm 10 x 3 car CAF sets vs 14 x 2 car Endeavours, so longer, but potentially less frequent services, unless it is planned to use them more intensively.
The Current Timetable calls for the following Endeavour set Rosters, with an estimate of the New Regional Intercity sets allocated, at that same Level of Service:-
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Endeavour sets . . .. Regional Intercity (10 x 3car)
South Coast . . . . . . . . . . .. .. .. .. 1 x 2car set . . . . .. 1 x 3car set
Southern Line . . . . . . . . . . .. .. .. 6 x 2car sets . . . . . 6 x 3car sets
Western Line . . . . . . . .. . . .. .. .. 2 x 2car sets . . . . . Nil (provided by changeover sets, including Short & Long Regional sets, to/from Dubbo)
Hunter Line . . . . . . . . . . . . .. .. . 2 x 2car sets . . . . . 1 x 3car set
Repair & Maintenance. . . . . .. .. .. 3 x 2car sets . . . . . 2 x 3car sets
(Note: Endeavour Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 2car sets in Sydney, 1 x 2car set in Broadmeadow).
(Note: Regional Maintenance sets are allocated: 2 x 3car sets in Dubbo).

Note: there are 7 x 2car Hunter sets, in the Hunter, 5 x 2car sets are required for the Timetable.
With the withdrawal of Endeavour sets, 6 x 2car Hunter sets would be required.
Linto63
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Linto63 »

So the Bathurst Bullet will be made up of a 3, 6 (or even 9) car set as maintenance requirements require. Presumably first class will be locked off to keep the oiks out.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by In Transit »

There's not going to be much margin in that fleet allocation!
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boronia
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

Especially if they come with CAF's signature problems.
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Transtopic
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Transtopic »

It demonstrates the absurdity of having the Regional Train Fleet Maintenance Centre at Dubbo on the far reaches of the network for nothing but crass political reasons, instead of at a more central location. A lot of dead running will be involved, especially for the Regional Intercity and Short Regional sets. At least the Long Regional sets will actually have a service to Dubbo, which the other sets won't. It's around another 200km from Bathurst to Dubbo which will involve dead running for the Regional Intercity and Short Regional sets in both directions. The Short Regional sets will probably operate to Broken Hill on their weekly return trip, but it's on a different line. You couldn't make it more complicated with the best will in the world.

It would have made more sense to establish the Maintenance Centre in Sydney, but if the political prerogative was to establish it in a regional centre, then Goulburn would have been a better choice, as it will be serviced by all Regional Fleet types, although there would still be some dead running for the Long Regional sets and to a lesser extent the Short Regional sets for the Canberra and Griffith services. But I forgot, that's a Liberal seat and not a National seat. It goes without saying that it couldn't possibly be in a Labor seat.

There certainly isn't much margin in the new fleet allocation, which barely replaces the existing fleet, without any consideration being given to increasing service frequencies or introducing new services. Regional voters should take note, when the LNP is spending billions on new metro projects in Sydney.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by matthewg »

Transtopic wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:58 pm It demonstrates the absurdity of having the Regional Train Fleet Maintenance Centre at Dubbo on the far reaches of the network for nothing but crass political reasons, instead of at a more central location.
Just wait for some future consultants called in to 'optimise' the fleet allocation recommending that the fleet base be moved to some location closer to Sydney to remove all the extra 'dead running' to get to and from the fleet base.

Of course by that time the site of the XPT centre will have been redeveloped into a 20 story residential complex (that regularly has it's underground car park flood) and finding an alternative site in the Sydney basin will be hard and expensive.
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ACM
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by ACM »

Today observed at Hornsby at approx 10am:
-Plat 5 Northbound Explorer departing
-Plat 4 (only front door in platform) Endeavour waiting to get the road. Less than 5 mins later, it took off chasing the Explorer (probably to swap over the Hunter duty)

Heard on the grapevine that 600 Sydney trains employees are isolating.

Agree that the idea to put the Regional Train Fleet centre in anywhere except Sydney is bonkers (politically motivated). Grab some land at Meeks Rd, Everleigh, Clyde or Flemington for it (i suspect the latter may shut down in the next few years when K sets and V sets go). Even f---ing Cronulla or Golburn would be a wiser place than Dubbo with all the dead running involved!
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Transtopic »

ACM wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 12:32 pm Agree that the idea to put the Regional Train Fleet centre in anywhere except Sydney is bonkers (politically motivated). Grab some land at Meeks Rd, Everleigh, Clyde or Flemington for it (i suspect the latter may shut down in the next few years when K sets and V sets go). Even f---ing Cronulla or Golburn would be a wiser place than Dubbo with all the dead running involved!
And Chullora as well?
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by ACM »

And Chullora as well?
[/quote]
Definitely! Lavender Bay would make more sense than f-king Dubbo!
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boronia
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by boronia »

Where will the new sets be serviced in Sydney? Are they keeping Meeks Rd for that?
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gilberations
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by gilberations »

My 2 cents is that Chullora or Enfield would be the logical choice for a Sydney based maintenance Centre, however it’ll probably be called a Presentation Centre, so as to get around the rules for faults and failures departing from a Maintainence Centre.

Failing those two locations, possibly Lithgow, a second KangyAngy facility, Broadmeadow, or Port Kembla would be logical out of Sydney options.
Linto63
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022

Post by Linto63 »

Logically Eveleigh and / or Meeks Road would just be upgraded rather than a new facility in the boonies.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Special_K »

Rather than run empty to Dubbo, there is scope to operate a second daily service, departing Dubbo in the early AM and Sydney in the late afternoon. Up and down sets would cross at a convenient location between Bathurst and Orange.

This is a very simple suggestion and practical issues such as fleet type on a particular train would be required for seat bookings etc.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

Given they're not too old, we could end up in a situation similar to how the S sets stayed on long after they were originally meant to be retired. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few Endeavours retained as spares, or possibly even a few short workings.
BroadGauge wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 10:47 pm Tripview is showing a Saturday timetable operating on SHL every weekday next week, with the addition of the one morning Moss Vale - Central through service extended to start from Goulburn at 8:33am, and the afternoon 4:08pm Central - Moss Vale service extended to Goulburn.
Looks like TripView has now been updated with the 'almost weekday' timetable mentioned above. Maybe that was the initial plan before common sense prevailed :roll:
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Frodo »

Something different - this weekend, a couple of BMT services were timetabled to go around the city circle stopping all stations as platforms 9-12 at Central were unavailable for use.
Real time apps listed these trains as 8V which I would have been curious to see but unfortunately it was only a 4V (on Saturday at least).
Attachments
V2 at Town Hall operating a Mt Victoria service commencing from Central via Museum
V2 at Town Hall operating a Mt Victoria service commencing from Central via Museum
Katoomba service arriving at Central going operating to the City Circle via Museum
Katoomba service arriving at Central going operating to the City Circle via Museum
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by Glen »

tonyp wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:01 am
Bomaderry-Kiama is 34 km and 27 minutes by rail.
Therein lies the key point.

If you could upgrade the line to reduce that to 25 minutes you could run an hourly service all day with one set.
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Re: Railway Observations for 2022.

Post by tonyp »

Glen wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:44 pm
tonyp wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:01 am
Bomaderry-Kiama is 34 km and 27 minutes by rail.
Therein lies the key point.

If you could upgrade the line to reduce that to 25 minutes you could run an hourly service all day with one set.
Yes.
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