Manly Ferry Services...

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

bussie wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:11 am Surely this looks ok to TNSW:
https://www.facebook.com/FerriesOfSydne ... 6366666311

(This was before it was taken out of service).
Telephoto lenses are excellent for making sea states look worse than they are. That Ferries of Sydney group also posted a funny photo a while ago showing a Freshwater heaving about heading out to sea on the V, while in the foreground of the photo was a Manly Fast Ferry cat going across on a straight-line towards Manly, untroubled by the sea. The Emeralds are about the same size as many of the boats that ran to Manly in the 19th century, but better because of the wave-piercing cat hull. I've been out there in a decent swell with the late Capt Ron Hart (of the Manly ferries) in his little fishing launch which was about 7 or 8 metres. Boats are remarkably buoyant things regardless of their size, I guess that's why they were invented.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

There is a message on Anytrip that as from today for two weeks Manly Wharf will be partially closed for maintenance and that some ferry services will continue to operate during that time from one side of the wharf. So far today I have only see Emeralds shown as operating services - Fairlight, Pemulwuy and May Gibbs on two of the three schedules. Nothing as usual on the third one.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

The Collaroy is back from 2.30pm
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newsl ... d2537a1dce

Manly Ferry: Skipper made call to pull Emerald class ferries from route due to passenger comfort

Despite officials blaming a lack of testing in large swell for the new ferries being pulled from service on Sunday – with swells less than 2.5m – the Manly Daily can reveal who really made the call.
Julie Cross

November 25, 2021 - 5:00AM
Manly Daily

The new Emerald class ferries were pulled from the Manly route in swells of less than 2.5m on Sunday because an experienced skipper felt the ride was too uncomfortable for passengers, it has emerged.

Marty McEvilly, an official from the Australian Maritime Officers Union (AMOU), confirmed that the skipper made the call because “there was a pretty significant concern for passenger comfort”.

“I was told it was like landing on concrete when it was coming down on top of the swell,” he said.

A spokesman for the ferry operator Transdev had previously said the Emerald ferries were pulled and replaced by buses, due to the fact the Indonesian-built boats had not yet been tested in swells of 2.5m. It did not mention passenger comfort.

The larger Freshwater class ferries – which were running in tandem with the new ferries on Sunday – were able to operate as normal. The Manly Fast Ferry was also still in service.

Transdev did not directly respond to the claim it was the skipper that made the call to stop the Emerald class run because of concerns around passenger comfort.

Instead it said the Emerald class ferries were cancelled “following operational observations and modelling of predicted swell levels”.

Another source, a former skipper that is close to the crew, explained what happened on Sunday in more detail.

He said the skipper of the Fairlight, after doing a return run at around 1pm, was concerned for passenger comfort in the 2.2m to 2.5m swell.

“The first skipper on the Fairlight did the trip to Manly and back and said he was taking it off the run because it was too dangerous,” he said.

The source said a second skipper took out a first generation Emerald class ferry to Manly but decided to return to Circular Quay without passengers.

“He must have realised it was a pretty hairy situation because when he got to Manly he decided he would return empty, with no passengers,” the source said.

“It’s not as if the boats can’t withstand swells like that. The boats aren’t going to sink. It is more about the comfort of the passengers.

“There would be concerns that the elderly and children could get thrown around.”

The Manly Daily has not spoken to either of the skippers directly, as they are not allowed to speak to the media.

Mr McEvilly said the union was concerned that the Emerald class was not “fit for purpose” for the Manly run.

“They are not designed to handle the swells or the passenger numbers when we get back to normal,” he said.

“We are going to see a whole lot of runs cancelled and replaced with buses in situations where the Freshwaters are more than capable of running.”

A spokesman for Transdev said the “safety and comfort of our customers is Transdev’s number one priority”.

“The Emerald Gen 2 vessels are purpose built to operate the Manly route and have been designed to operate in swells of up to 4.5 metres.

“Until the vessels can be trialled in various sea conditions for further risk assessments, a restriction on operations in swells above 2.5 metres is in place.”

It said an initial risk assessment was conducted on Monday and Transdev hopes to use the expected increase of swell later over coming days to conduct sea trials with our experienced trials crew and health and safety representatives.

Transdev has said all three new Emerald class vessels will be running on the Manly route before the end of the year.

They will replace the iconic Freshwater class ferries in the week.

Two larger ferries will operate in tandem with the Emerald class at the weekends.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:51 am There is a message on Anytrip that as from today for two weeks Manly Wharf will be partially closed for maintenance and that some ferry services will continue to operate during that time from one side of the wharf. So far today I have only see Emeralds shown as operating services - Fairlight, Pemulwuy and May Gibbs on two of the three schedules. Nothing as usual on the third one.
Oops, The alert about this says that it is Circular Quay wharf 3 which is the wharf effected.
Details
From Monday 22 November to Friday 3 December, Circular Quay Wharf 3 will be partially closed for maintenance.
Some ferry services will continue to run from one side of the wharf.
Please check indicator screens and listen to announcements.
Living in the Shire.
Randomness
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:17 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Anything with an Zf Ecomat
Location: Around the 920

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Randomness »

A warning on Anytrip: "Due to high swell conditions Many ferries will run to an amended timetable (every 40 minutes)."
No tracked F1 services at the moment.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Also an alert to this effect https://transportnsw.info/alerts/details#/ems-453
So it appear as though there just two Freshwaters operating.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

There was a report on a FB page yesterday that Balmoral suffered a smashed window and lost rudder control on one side during a crossing.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
In Transit
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

That may be true, or it may not.

What we do know is that the issue of replacing the Freshwater Class is highly charged - politically, industrially and commercially. There are disparate groups with various interests, for all of whom no solution is acceptable short of retaining the Freshwater Class, and for whom there is plenty of mileage to be gained in the meantime by vigorously campaigning. Some of those campaigners profess to be pro public transport, yet appear to be more anti change, whilst others are generally very agitated about climate change but somehow ignore that when it comes to large ferries emitting the same exhaust whether carrying 10 or 1,000 passengers, with little opportunity to scale emissions to meet patronage.

There's no doubt the size of the vessel is a complete furphy - not only have Manly Fast Ferries been using smaller vessels successfully for years, but there are plenty of open ocean crossings made by vessels which are nowhere near the size of the Freshwaters. Whether the second iteration of the Emerald Class design proves to be suitable, for most of those campaigning against them it's actually irrelevant - if it's not a Freshwater Class, they won't accept it.

The one group that isn't represented by any of these campaigners are those passengers (and potential passengers) who welcome retaining the pleasure of a ferry ride on the harbour with a trip that is both faster and more frequent. More frequent and faster means better public transport - a contrast against those who want less frequent and slower.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

It seems to have become "official":
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/win ... 59cv4.html

The previous source claimed a nut on the rudder came loose.

For most people, a trip to Manly is the same regardless of the speed, size or shape of the vessel. Sure the Freshies have "visual presence" but there is not a lot to see that is degraded by the trip being 10 minutes faster. Locals claim the big ferries are necessary for local tourism, but perhaps an extra 10 minutes there would be more beneficial. Bondi probably attracts as many tourists (and from my previous involvement in tourism seemed to be better known) and doesn't need a ferry to promote it.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

Manly Daily

CCTV appears to show passengers not in discomfort on cancelled Emerald class ferry service

The operators of the new ferries say CCTV appears to show passengers were not ‘uncomfortable or distressed’ before the service was cancelled on Sunday, as an independent body investigates.
Julie Cross

November 26, 2021 - 5:00AM
Manly Daily

Operators of the new Emerald class ferries that saw its services cancelled on Sunday due to a swell of less than 2.5m, have reviewed CCTV and say passengers did not seem to be in discomfort, as was previously suggested.

A spokesman for Transdev said “initial investigation findings indicate that passenger services could have carried on safely and without undue discomfort to passengers in the same and higher sea conditions”.

The skipper of a ferry ultimately makes the call on whether to pull a service or not.

On Sunday the skipper of the Fairlight decided to halt the run over concerns for passenger comfort.

Later a second skipper, on a first generation Emerald, decided not to continue the service either.

“Initial review of CCTV footage from those Emerald Class vessels services indicates that customers do not appear to be uncomfortable or distressed in anyway during the journeys in question,” a Transdev spokesman said.

It comes as an independent transport safety body has confirmed it is looking at why the new Emerald class ferry service from Manly to Circular Quay had to be cancelled on Sunday.

The Office of Transport Safety Investigations said it had been asked by Transdev to investigate.

A spokesman for OTSI said it had “received a notification from the operator of the Manly ferry service, Transdev Sydney Ferries, relating to the cancellation of services on Sunday 21 November”.

“OTSI is undertaking preliminary enquiries into the matter, including liaising with the operator, to understand what happened and to determine whether there are any systemic safety issues that require further attention,” the spokesman said.

On the OTSI website it said that its role “is to identify why an accident or incident occurred and to make recommendations to prevent recurrence”.

A spokesman for Transdev said in this instance OTSI was contacted in relation to a complaint by one Master about another.

“On Sunday 21 November, some F1 Manly services operated by Emerald Gen 2 were replaced by buses after a Master cited concerns about passenger comfort due to sea conditions, despite the conditions being well within the capabilities of the vessels,” a Transdev spokesman said.

“Subsequent to this, an internal report was provided to Transdev questioning a separate Master’s decision to proceed with a trip after being advised of potential for passenger discomfort.

“Transdev chose to proactively report the matter to the Office of Transport Safety Investigations (OTSI) and Australian Maritime Safety Authority (AMSA).

“OTSI have only requested a copy of Transdev’s internal investigation and not initiated their own investigation. The internal investigation raises no concern in relation to safety of the vessel, passengers or crew.”

The spokesman went on to say that the Master who made the decision not to operate the Gen 2 Emerald Class Fairlight service on Sunday has many years of experience on the Freshwater vessels but recently transitioned to operating Emerald vessels.

He said while Transdev “supported the Master’s decision not to operate the service if deemed unsuitable for passenger service, initial investigation findings indicate that passenger services could have carried on safely and without undue discomfort to passengers in the same and higher sea conditions.

“Initial review of CCTV footage from those Emerald Class vessels services indicates that customers do not appear to be uncomfortable or distressed in anyway during the journeys in question,” the spokesman said.

“Transdev will share the findings of the internal investigation with OTSI once finalised.”

Transport for NSW has repeatedly said the boats are designed to cope with swells of up to 4.5m, but have yet to undergo a risk assessment for swells of more than 2.5m.

This week, Marty McEvilly, an official from the Australian Maritime Officers Union (AMOU), told the Manly Daily, that the skipper made the call to stop running the ferry because “there was a pretty significant concern for passenger comfort”.

“I was told it was like landing on concrete when it was coming down on top of the swell,” he said.

The larger Freshwater class ferries – which were running in tandem with the new ferries on Sunday – were able to operate as normal. The Manly Fast Ferry was also still in service.

The new faster Emerald class ferries are due to take over the route from the larger ferries on weekdays by the end of the year, with the promise of more frequent crossings.

But campaigners fighting against the removal of the Freshwater class ferries from the F1 route have been warning that the new vessels would not be able to cope with the swell across the heads.

It’s also been discovered that at very low tides the new ferries cannot dock at the usual wharfs at both Manly or Circular Quay.

Mr McEvilly said the union was concerned that the Emerald class was not “fit for purpose” for the Manly run.

“They are not designed to handle the swells or the passenger numbers when we get back to normal,” he said.

“We are going to see a whole lot of runs cancelled and replaced with buses in situations where the Freshwaters are more than capable of running.”
It’s also been discovered that at very low tides the new ferries cannot dock at the usual wharfs at both Manly or Circular Quay.
That's just fascinating, considering that the Emeralds have a shallower draught than any of the big ferries, now or past. Perhaps they shouldn't try beaching them. They're not landing craft.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

In Transit wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:48 pm The one group that isn't represented by any of these campaigners are those passengers (and potential passengers) who welcome retaining the pleasure of a ferry ride on the harbour with a trip that is both faster and more frequent. More frequent and faster means better public transport - a contrast against those who want less frequent and slower.
It reminds me of what we went through in the lead-up to the metro in recent times. The same irrational opposition to faster, more frequent transit, the unions sticking their nose in when there's no issue that concerns them. I guess the metro might have been a little more bipartisan, so wasn't so much of a political bludgeon, that's about all.
boronia wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 4:14 pm
The previous source claimed a nut on the rudder came loose.
The opponents are getting desperate when they're resorting to clinging to rudders. I hope somebody picked him up before he drowned.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

Do the big ferry wharfs (CQ #3 and Manly west side) have pontoons? The MFF side at Manly has an attached pontoon. The deck level of the Emeralds might be below the wharf deck at low tide?

And do ferry masters get paid more to operate a Freshie compared to an Emerald?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
In Transit
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

Yes, the F1 operates from fixed wharves at either end - so the low tide issue won’t be a question of draft but of relative height to the wharf. The government’s decision to retain operating the Freshwater’s alongside the Emerald has probably also complicated making the wharf appropriate for the Emeralds. Pontoons are certainly better for DDA.

As for pay, yes under their Enterprise Agreement a Freshwater master gets paid more than an Emerald master, and a Freshwater requires 6 crew as opposed to 4 - so three Emeralds can operate a 20 min frequency with 12 crew as opposed to three Freshwaters operating a 30 min frequency with 18 crew. You can draw your own conclusions how that might affect some attitudes.
Last edited by In Transit on Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In Transit
Posts: 385
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by In Transit »

There are some interesting tidbits in that second Daily Telegraph quoted by tonyp:

#1 - The operator seems to be having a bob each way, both inferring it was safe enough for operations to continue but also standing behind the decision of its staff not to operate. That's understandable, but leaves it open to interpretation.
#2 - It's mentioned that after the first master decided it was unsafe to continue Emerald operation, that a second master decided he/she would operate another Emerald to Manly, but after arriving in Manly decided to return out of service. So, presumably that master agreed it was unsuitable conditions, but interestingly...
#3 - A report was then made internally about the decision of the second master to continue operating to Manly. There's a few things a reasonable observer might consider about that, including to what extent the "hairy situation" was on the water or off it.

Then again, it's all in the media, so who knows what really happened. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of people willing to talk, including both the offical ones and "sources close to the crew" who are apparently readily available to the media armed with inside information.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

The Master of a ship has supreme and overriding legal authority while the ship is on passage, so is in a rather different position from drivers of buses, trains and trams in relation to his or her employer. There's nothing that the owner of the vessel can do but acknowledge the navigational decision made by the Master while expressing their disagreement.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by jpp42 »

Another beat-up, this time about a faulty rudder and a broken window:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/win ... 59cv4.html

Never mind that Transdev says neither issue is actually related to the heavy swells the vessel was being trialled in, that doesn't stop the opposition transport spokesman for claiming they are.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

That article was reported above yesterday at 4.14pm.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

If the issues were not related to the heavy swell why was the Balmoral not replaced by the Fairlight for the rest of the day instead of reducing services, so that they could continue testing?
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Today only trips by the Fairlight appear to be tracked by Anytrip.
Living in the Shire.
tonyp
Posts: 12348
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by tonyp »

There's so much disinformation flying around and so many people with conflicting interests making statements, it's best to sit back and wait until the full service starts running. Not much point speculating. Suffice to say that they got through the 19th century with boats that were mostly the Emeralds' size and even the big PJMS ships would sometimes get a sea across the main deck, smashing windows and seats. When the service was stopped, it was not because of the sea, but because of the difficulty of berthing at Manly and damage to the wharf. It will likely be easier to berth the lighter Emeralds in a swell than the big ferries. Let's wait till the tumult and the shouting die and let the regular customers vote with their feet.
User avatar
jpp42
Posts: 1377
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:27 pm

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by jpp42 »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:31 am If the issues were not related to the heavy swell why was the Balmoral not replaced by the Fairlight for the rest of the day instead of reducing services, so that they could continue testing?
There are any number of reasons another vessel may not have been ready for use for that purpose.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 21566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
Location: Sydney NSW

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by boronia »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:31 am If the issues were not related to the heavy swell why was the Balmoral not replaced by the Fairlight for the rest of the day instead of reducing services, so that they could continue testing?
From what I read, the Balmoral was being tested, not carrying pax at the time. There would have been a risk of similar problems with the other two?
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

I did look at Anytrip at the time and it did carry passengers to Manly as scheduled. It did not carry passengers on the return trip although Anytrip still show it as a scheduled service.

I think it was being tested in service.
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 23803
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Manly Ferry Services...

Post by Fleet Lists »

Anytrip is currently showing two older Emeralds operating Fred Hollows and Victor Chang with no Freshwaters - For instance nothing is showing for the 1.45 trip from Manly,
Living in the Shire.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”