NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Merc1107 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:10 pm
tonyp wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:17 am There's also a local skills shortage that has been a dampener on bus manufacturers, but I don't know that supply chains have been affected much at this stage. Cars are a different kettle of fish.
There have been that many exogenous shocks in the past 24 months that it would be hard to assert the bus supply chains are relatively unaffected.
  • The pandemic, and subsequent restrictions on international travel globally will have worsened short-medium term labour shortages globally (Australia more-so)
  • A ship got stuck in the Suez Canal, slowing down movement of goods for months
  • Shipping containers are suddenly quite scarce (perhaps due to the ship in the Suez)
  • Computer chip manufacturers in Taiwan have slowed production due to drought
  • Prices of inputs like Iron Ore and Crude Oil (thanks, OPEC...) are at record-highs
  • The Ukrainian situation, sanctions on Russia presumably wreaking havoc with European manufacturing due to shortage/high cost of energy and other inputs
  • Monetary (RBA) and fiscal (Government) economic policies designed to stimulate demand - the present inflation rates are indicative of a high demand relative to supply
On the topic of cars, I'm hearing Land Cruiser utes, a disturbingly utilitarian vehicle given the hefty sum they command, are now at an 18mo wait, with people being so bereft of common sense that they're paying upfront for the things. Secondhand examples now run at or above new price :shock:

Cities like Perth and Adelaide have sizeable orders with Scania and Volvo presently - if deliveries for these two start to experience delays (and its surprising if they don't already, with today's "just in time" inventories), then we'll know there is a supply issue. The likes of Mercedes, MAN and the Chinese would be ones to watch - without big, long-term contracts, are they already having trouble?
It doesn't help these supply chains that China still locks everything down whenever somebody sneezes and tests everybody in the city that has the COVID cases
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Swift wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 3:18 pm
Linto63 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 9:28 am Sydney was hardly unique in doing away with its trolleybus network, all other Australian cities did the same thing in the 50s and 60s. Evidently the economics favoured diesel buses.
Like usual , Sydney see Sydney do no matter how daft.
If Not So Great At Times Britain jumped, Australia asked how many times and how high?
What does that mean?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Emulates bad decisions. Monkey see monkey do.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Punchbowl Bus Co even has an electric bus on route 7 from the Easter Show to Cronulla at the moment.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Didn't even know they had electrics, I'll probably have a look for myself tomorrow. I believe this would be the first time the Shire has seen an electric.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

It's a BYD D9RA & would be one of their 5 that they have, one from them was also at Olympics park yesterday morning (as observed on Anytrip when I was checking what was running).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Have you travelled on a trolleybus?
Extensively, on historical examples at museums and on contemporary versions in Europe, New Zealand and the United States.
Swift wrote: Like usual , Sydney see Sydney do no matter how daft.
Sydney was actually the first Australian city to completely close its trolleybus network in 1959, the others would follow over the next decade.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Fleet Lists wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:39 pm Punchbowl Bus Co even has an electric bus on route 7 from the Easter Show to Cronulla at the moment.
A second one followed it about an hour later.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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GriffinRoads1 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:26 pm Didn't even know they had electrics, I'll probably have a look for myself tomorrow. I believe this would be the first time the Shire has seen an electric.
No not the first one seen in the shire.
The Inspector saw a Transdev one at Kurnell in July last year.
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/di ... ?pid=19775
At about that time there was also one scheduled for a couple of weeks on route 971 weekdays at about 3pm to Cronulla and later on a 970 trip but whenever I tried to get a photo it did not operate on that day. Believed to have been from Kingsgrove depot.

Also caught Punchbowl 8411 on rail at Cronulla in February this year
https://www.flickr.com/photos/193972346 ... 893939154/

And for some other Punchbowl photos around Hurstville see
https://www.busaustralia.com/gallery/th ... n&type=AND
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Is the central coast scheduled to get any? Hopefully they will be Elements.

Good to hear it was a Sydney's own decision to shut down the Kogarah system. Makes it a bit less appalling.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Thanks for the information, interesting to see an electric Volgren optimus, didn't even know it existed.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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I just hope they take over from diesel fast and aren't relegated to being boutique or niche vehicles.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Are there any plans for electric coaches for networks like NSW Trainlink? This seems to be the only chance to "electrify" all those abandoned branchlines, plus fuel prices.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Not until ranges in excess of 500 kilometres can be easily achieved. Most of the NSW TrainLink coach contracts are due foe re-tendering imminently and it is unlikely that they will specify vehicles that are very much in their infancy in the countries that take the lead in such initiatives.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Yep. City buses can be more easily electrified because their average speed (with stops and traffic) is low so the required range is less.

Much harder equation for buses traveling at 80+ on long hops. Probably like long distance trains green hydrogen might be a more viable alternative (lower weight but higher volume versus diesel)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:34 am Yep. City buses can be more easily electrified because their average speed (with stops and traffic) is low so the required range is less.

Much harder equation for buses traveling at 80+ on long hops. Probably like long distance trains green hydrogen might be a more viable alternative (lower weight but higher volume versus diesel)
Similar to why electric cars aren't viable if you live or drive regularly in the country. Because of the distances and the hours it takes to traverse those distances, you don't have time to sit around for an hour or whatever to top up during the journey - compared to five minutes for fuel top up at a service station.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Also long distance is where fossil fuels ate most efficient.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Guess we'll wait a couple decades.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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The hydrogen option seems more likely for longer distance work for both coaches and trucks. This will be an interesting area to watch over the next few years. There was also an article recently about a trucking firm settting up a network of quick change battery sites along, I think, the Newell Highway. So change the batteries over in 30 mins instead of waiting for recharge. Kind of like swapping the gas bottle for your barbie!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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1whoknows wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:55 am The hydrogen option seems more likely for longer distance work for both coaches and trucks. This will be an interesting area to watch over the next few years. There was also an article recently about a trucking firm settting up a network of quick change battery sites along, I think, the Newell Highway. So change the batteries over in 30 mins instead of waiting for recharge. Kind of like swapping the gas bottle for your barbie!
Those really the only way it'd be possible. I bet the electric trucks won't be long haul either.
Fuel tankers in the metropolitan area is what they're talking.
I bet if they develop batteries that charge up close to the time it takes to fill up with diesel, they will be so volatile it'll be like hauling mini nuclear reactors!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

^ That's Janus Electric.
Which is also doing it by converting older diesel trucks, which speeds up electrification by converting midlife trucks.

Whether it succeeds will depend on their ability to scale charging locations and the number of spare batteries and power requirements.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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moa999 wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:06 am ^ That's Janus Electric.
Which is also doing it by converting older diesel trucks, which speeds up electrification by converting midlife trucks.
Why not buses too. The government can offer extended fleet age permits for extra incentive.

Here's their website. Looks promising and it's Australian.
Don't let the foreign manufacturers who have a long established foothold here try and sabotage it.

https://www.januselectric.com.au/
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Swift wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:36 amWhy not buses too. The government can offer extended fleet age permits for extra incentive.
Because existing buses are unlikely to have the strength to carry rooftop batteries. Unless a bus has been designed with EV conversion in mind, unlikely it would be economical.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Which would potentially make CNG vehicles a potential candidate for such an initiative, given the substantial rooftop weight they carry. What is the weight of batteries versus full gas tanks?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »


Swift wrote: Why not buses too. The government can offer extended fleet age permits for extra incentive./
Maybe in old American school buses where you have big engines.
Janus solution is putting batteries in the engine bay, where they can be easily forklifted out, then smaller electric motors in the drivetrain.

Doesn't really work for your modern diesel bus with a tiny vertical engine.
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