NSW Electric Bus Plan

[hornetfig]

Hydrogen makes more sense than banks of volatile Lithium batteries that are a ticking time bomb and don't last.
Battery buses, like cars are being imposed on us head long by ideologues who are ignoring the problems they will cause and we will pay for their hubris.

As we know, hydrogen's not at all explosive or anything.

[Randomness]

To be fair, Hydrogen is also very reactive and flammable. Just look at historical footage of the Hindenburg.

[Swift]

As we know, hydrogen's not at all explosive or anything.

Haha - I would assume they have made enough technology inroads into combating that factor by now since there's been talk of it's serious viability for a while now.
Battery electric is proving to be so troublesome that even green zealots like the U.S Democrat administration is pulling back on their rushed push for EVs while Australia is not. It's totally ideologically driven, not business driven and members here are clearly in support of this stubborn push.

[Merc1107]

Hydrogen is not exactly ideal either, if it should leak and an ignition source exist nearby...

[flitter]

Do you have a picture of the bus that has big gas bags above it rather than using the more common metal tank?

[tonyp]

Hydrogen makes more sense than banks of volatile Lithium batteries that are a ticking time bomb and don't last.
Battery buses, like cars are being imposed on us head long by ideologues who are ignoring the problems they will cause and we will pay for their hubris.

Hydrogen buses are battery buses too.

[moa999]

The main issue with hydrogen v.a.v. battery is running cost.

Making green hydrogen uses 2.5-3x the amount of electricity to move a given vehicle the same amount as a similar battery vehicle.
And then you've got distribution costs on top.

There is research into cheaper methods but none of them are anywhere near even trial stage let alone commercial production.

There is still probably a role for hydrogen in powering things that batteries may struggle with - like ships, aircraft, maybe even long-haul buses, trucking and trains.

But apart from some specific markets, it's dead in the water for most passenger vehicles. Japan is one of those markets as it ultimately wants to replace oil, natural gas and coal imports with hydrogen.. and if you're already importing it in that form there is some sense keeping it in that form.

[tonyp]

The main issue with hydrogen v.a.v. battery is running cost.

Capital cost is also an issue. They cost nearly twice as much as an overnight charge battery bus. On a per passenger basis, they cost more than a tram.

[Swift]

Stick with ICE longer then until a proper alternative arrives.

[2112Y]

Media Release
Trials of zero emission buses on Armidale and Tweed region school routes

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... 0Heads.pdf

Tuesday, 27 February 2024
Images available to download
here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/wlqtg7xd ... 9nin &dl=0
Four electric buses will be rolled out on routes servicing 30 schools in the Armidale and Tweed regions in coming months as part of a trial of zero emission technology in regional NSW.
During the Transport for NSW trial, the battery electric buses will operate on routes in the Tweed area serviced by Kinetic and in Armidale by Edwards Coaches.
Vehicle dealership, VDI Australia has been awarded the contract to deliver the zero emission school buses –two to Armidale and two to Tweed.
Zero emission buses offer passengers a quieter, smoother, and more comfortable journey, and emit no harmful exhaust fumes, improving air quality.
The NSW Government has committed $25 million towards this project which will see a series of trials of zero emission buses and coaches across regional NSW.
Community feedback from passengers will be sought during the trials to provide information for the future roll out of zero emission buses.
The trials will be conducted using different vehicles and technologies in a range of environments, to understand what best suits regional and remote service needs.
The Tweed and Armidale communities will be updated when start dates for their trials are confirmed.
The trials will contribute to the transition of the state’s regional bus fleet to zero emissions by 2047.
For more information on the zero-emissions bus trial go to: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... sion-buses
Minister for Regional Transport and Roads Jenny Aitchison said:“I am pleased to announce hundreds of students will soon experience a quieter and smoother ride to school as four electric buses are trialled in our regions.
“In the Tweed, at different times during the trials students from 17 primary and high schools will be able to catch an electric bus, while in Armidale and Uralla, at different times zero emission vehicles will run to and from 13 local primary and high schools.
“Testing the buses in the unique environments of Armidale, at 1000m above sea level, and the coastal climate and hilly topography of the Tweed will provide important data about how zero emissions buses can perform in regional NSW.”
Peter Primrose MLC, Labor spokesperson for the Northern Tablelands said:
“This trial is an important step towards the NSW Government’s plan to transition the state’s fleet of 8000-plus diesel and gas buses to zero emissions technology by 2047.
“It is particularly exciting for Armidale and Uralla to be taking part in this trial as it follows a better bus network unveiled in December with 23 more services each week.
“Trialling the buses in different conditions and routes across regional and rural NSW is key to ensure we collect data to make informed decisions about the most suitable technology for the transition to zero emission transport.”
Emily Suvaal MLC, Labor spokesperson for Tweed said:
“It is great news that the Tweed region has been awarded contracts for two zero emission buses in this exciting trial.
“The buses will run on routes transporting students to and from 17 primary and high schools and service eight different school routes at different times.
“The schools serviced are in Banora Point, Bilambil, Carool, Cudgen, Kingscliff, Murwillumbah, Tweed Heads South, Terranora, and Tumbulgum.”
Further trials of zero emission buses are expected to be announced in the south and west regions of NSW in coming months.

[Swift]

Zero emission technology. Will they ensure all the recharging power comes from hydro and wind farms?
There's now talk of nuclear power. More smoke and mirrors from people who lie to the populace for a living.

[1whoknows]

$25m in government funding - four new diesel buses would cost no more than $2.5m.

[Stu]

$25m in government funding - four new diesel buses would cost no more than $2.5m.

Besides the actual buses, the funding would cover other parts of the project such as infrastructure, construction and maintenance etc. Contracts and contractors equals many $$$.

[1whoknows]

Yes. Thus $22.5m could be saved in the state budget by NOT doing the project.

[Campbelltown busboy]

The feds are talking about slapping the luxury car tax on hybrid vehicles so more people will buy EVs so Australia can get a gold star off the UN for doing what we are asked when it comes to combatting climate change so why would the state government want to start a fight with the federal government about buying diesel buses for Sydney

[Linto63]

$25m in government funding - four new diesel buses would cost no more than $2.5m.

The project has $25m in funding, this will cover an undefined number of trials in other cities in addition to the two announced.

[Aurora]

With the same vehicles or others?

[tonyp]

Stick with ICE longer then until a proper alternative arrives.

The proper alternative first hit the road on 29 April 1882 and is still the first choice of operators around the world who need to do serious heavy lifting with 24 hour availability, no compromise to capacity, maximum reliability, lowest operating costs, can use renewable or nuclear electricity and yet nowadays can also operate anywhere you want without being tied to infrastructure. The number of systems is growing again as cities wake up to the realities of electric buses. Can you guess what the technology is?

The present fixation with heavy, low capacity, overnight-charging battery buses (or even fuel cell buses) as the only "solution" is absolutely insane. They have their uses here and there, but nowhere remotely near the total solution.

Besides the actual buses, the funding would cover other parts of the project such as infrastructure, construction and maintenance etc. Contracts and contractors equals many $$$.

Gaming taxpayers.

[Linto63]

Much as some like to look back fondly at the trolley bus era, a return isn't on anybody's radar in this country.

[Merc1107]

Might be a better investment of $25m than continually "trialling" battery electrics... It's effectively proven technology.

[tonyp]

Might be a better investment of $25m than continually "trialling" battery electrics... It's effectively proven technology.

Proven shortcomings as well as attributes. The "trialling" isn't so much for proof of the concept, which has been proven over 140 years, battery buses being identical to trolleybuses except for having batteries on board to provide the 'lectricity. The proving is for operation in the specific area, as battery specification depends on the climate and other local factors. New England is quite high altitude and it gets very cold and batteries don't like the cold, which affects their range. The hilly, humid coastal region has different challenges.

Much as some like to look back fondly at the trolley bus era, a return isn't on anybody's radar in this country.

As you well know, despite your provocative remarks, it's not looking back as it's very much current and reviving again as operators are discovering the limitations and lifetime costs of straight battery buses. It will eventually get on the radar here when a few pennies start dropping during accumulation of experience. It will just be a slower process here, as it usually takes our local bus sector about half a century to catch up with developments in the rest of the world.

[Swift]

Much as some like to look back fondly at the trolley bus era, a return isn't on anybody's radar in this country.

Think why they look back fondly. Not for romantic notions. Because they worked damned well.
If you're going to insist on dismissing it because of Australians penchant for mediocre to bad choices, then it's ICE baby!

[moa999]

The proper alternative first hit the road on 29 April 1882 and is still the first choice of operators around the world

Which cities are still using horse drawn trams as their main form of transportation?

Even in the tram centric city of Melbourne, annual patronage on buses is only just behind trams these days.

As seen by CSELR (even if you removed the wire free sections) the infrastructure cost of modern light rail is enormous, and it's really only justified on a limited number of high density routes.

And as we've seen with the continuation of bus routes in Sydney's East alongside the LR, people don't like to transfer.

[Bus 400]

Which cities are still using horse drawn trams as their main form of transportation?

Victor Harbour in South Australia.

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

[tonyp]

Which cities are still using horse drawn trams as their main form of transportation?

Even in the tram centric city of Melbourne, annual patronage on buses is only just behind trams these days.

As seen by CSELR (even if you removed the wire free sections) the infrastructure cost of modern light rail is enormous, and it's really only justified on a limited number of high density routes.

And as we've seen with the continuation of bus routes in Sydney's East alongside the LR, people don't like to transfer.

I don't understand the reference to horse-drawn trams, but, yes, Victor Harbor. The number of tram systems around the world has been growing strongly for some years. The reason for it is growing populations and the extra capacity needed to move them around. We need trams for, as you say, high density corridors and the number of those corridors naturally increases as cities grow - including in Sydney. For a lot of these corridors we even need to build metro lines. The extra cost of these investments is justified by the extra patronage they can move.

Buses have limits on their capacity, no more so than in Australia where we are very unresponsive to issues of bus productivity and we have actually been downscaling their capacity for some years - look at the obsession with one-size-fits-all and the reluctance to invest in higher capacity artics. On top of that, the standard 12 metre bus that we rely on so heavily has had its capacity white-anted or stunted for various reasons, whittling them down from the 80 or so passengers that they should be able to carry to 60 or so with the heavy battery buses. This is exactly the wrong trend to be happening at the worst possible time.

The Melbourne tram system suffers from a chronic lack of investment and has not been allowed to expand as population and potential catchments grow. The growth of bus patronage is merely a reflection of the growth of population in the outer suburbs that buses serve.