NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:23 pm The argument seems to be the same, or similar to that used for trams. A lot of it was ripped up in the post-war years as the systems had deteriorated and were in need of substantial modernisation. Was the infrastructure shared between modes then? If it was, perhaps it made more sense to gut the lot, rather than have to upgrade for the buses or trams (not both).
In cities with both tram and trolleybus systems they typically share the power supply. There was a lot of propaganda about need for modernisation that wasn't true. In Sydney, for example, they were continuing to renew and build new infrastructure and most lines were making a profit right up to the end.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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moa999 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:26 pm I think that's the answer. There is a lot of cost in maintaining the catenary (and track in terms of trams).

While electric buses are expensive upfront (both in the cost of batteries on the bus and charging stations at the depots), they are cheaper to operate, and obvious local environmental benefits.
All electric vehicles across the board are cheaper to operate and maintain and all bring local environmental (tailpipe) benefits. It's debatable whether overhead power supply with regeneration is more costly to operate and maintain when you consider the cost of recharging power spikes and replacing batteries that come with battery-electric buses.

To me, the biggest disadvantage of battery-electric buses compared to trolleybuses is the loss of capacity due to axle load. We know the figures from buses like the Custom Denning Element that easily have a capacity of 80 passengers but are downrated by TfNSW to 63 passengers due to axle load. That basically means that you need to buy additional buses (at additional cost) to perform a job. That doesn't sound very economical at all. It reminds me of a certain east coast Australian city that replaced 110 passenger trams with 70 passenger buses, one-for-one. The maths are more complex.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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tonyp wrote: In Sydney, for example, they were continuing to renew and build new infrastructure and most lines were making a profit right up to the end.
Little if any further lines were built beyond the 1930s. While there may have been some piecemeal capital works over the next few decades, the last major expenditure was on the truncated order for R1 trams, the last being delivered in 1953. Regardless of whether operated by tram, trolleybus or diesel bus, the decline in patronage and thus profitability was inevitable as car sales took off. By the end of its time, the Sydney network was largely a series of trunk route radiating out from the cbd, which much like the bus equivalent routes today, would have had a higher yield.
tonyp wrote: It's debatable whether overhead power supply with regeneration is more costly to operate and maintain when you consider the cost of recharging power spikes and replacing batteries that come with battery-electric buses.
Given that there have been few (if any) cities around the world that have opted for traditional trolleybuses over battery carrying electrics in recent years to eliminate diesels, would appear that the numbers add up in favour of the latter.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Linto63 wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:26 pm Little if any further lines were built beyond the 1930s. While there may have been some piecemeal capital works over the next few decades, the last major expenditure was on the truncated order for R1 trams, the last being delivered in 1953. Regardless of whether operated by tram, trolleybus or diesel bus, the decline in patronage and thus profitability was inevitable as car sales took off. By the end of its time, the Sydney network was largely a series of trunk route radiating out from the cbd, which much like the bus equivalent routes today, would have had a higher yield.

Given that there have been few (if any) cities around the world that have opted for traditional trolleybuses over battery carrying electrics in recent years to eliminate diesels, would appear that the numbers add up in favour of the latter.
Infrastructure covers more than new lines. There was ongoing work such as new platforms, tracks set in concrete etc. The growth of automobile use claim was largely a myth within the tram catchment. Within that area, the major shift to driving to work came after the end of the various tram lines and the change to buses. It was not a cause of the closure of the tram system, it was something that intruded on the subsequent bus system.

The point about trolleybus systems is that those 350 or so cities that have them are continuing them and building on them. It's not that they're being abandoned and replaced by battery buses, simply because the performance metrics of trolleybuses are superior to those of battery buses. On top of that, modern trolleybuses are battery buses as well, beyond their wires. When it comes to new systems, or replacing diesel buses on existing systems, it's typically considered easier upfront to simply go with battery buses, so little wonder that their adoption is a popular choice. However, trolley operations continue to be built, particularly in cities requiring high capacity articulated buses that don't have the range to operate all day without stopping to charge, thus require in-motion charging. Examples in big cities in recent times include Rome, Berlin and Prague.
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Talking of trolleybuses, I stumbled across some new "technology" on YouTube recently - the "trolleytruck". An experiment for long distance trucks that involves putting pantographs on the roof of a cabin and having overhead wires above the road. Imagine this on the Hume down to Melbourne.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBwvQwzBxjk
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Apropos modern trolleybuses, this photo of an articulated trolleybus on a metropolitan fringe service in Pilsen, Czech Republic makes a point without need for a caption. It doesn't waste any time "topping up" during its service, just keeps running.

Image
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Building these trolleybus systems here would cost money witch would involve partial funding from the federal government plus the Sydney metropolitan area bus network wouldn't be able to sustain a trolleybus system as there are routes that cross eachother at one point or another
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boronia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Why do you think that routes crossing each other would be an impediment?
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Campbelltown busboy wrote: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:57 am Building these trolleybus systems here would cost money witch would involve partial funding from the federal government plus the Sydney metropolitan area bus network wouldn't be able to sustain a trolleybus system as there are routes that cross eachother at one point or another
I'm not recommending that, just showing how existing trolleybus systems have a great advantage. The new systems that are being built, like in Berlin and Prague, don't need anything like the amount of overhead wire that a traditional system has. Probably only about a third and virtually no junctions.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

Interesting to see diesel buses still being ordered by Buslines, I thought all buses ordered from now have to be electric to reach 8000 electric buses by 2030.

http://fleetlists.busaustralia.com/nsw. ... &ltype=new
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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That does not as yet apply to country town bus fleets - though they are trialling an electric in Bathurst at present.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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idontknow556 wrote: Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:37 pm Interesting to see diesel buses still being ordered by Buslines, I thought all buses ordered from now have to be electric to reach 8000 electric buses by 2030.

http://fleetlists.busaustralia.com/nsw. ... &ltype=new
The e bus plan only applies to the Sydney and outer Sydney Transport For NSW bus contracts for now the government would need to really overhaul the regional bus contracts to bring them into line with the standards that operators in Sydney and surrounds have to adhere to
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Penrith now has 3 Electric buses all on depot at 1:30 this afternoon 2 are at the back of the depot on there ownwith 5001 parked among the normal buses also newly arrived at Penrith are some of the Mercedes Benz 510s from other depots although one I suspect is 501 which was in service on Friday.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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This interview has some very interesting insights from a manufacturer's perspective, even though pitched at Victoria, the discussion is national in scope:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pr ... yfAhzJEuwQ
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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tonyp wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:02 am This interview has some very interesting insights from a manufacturer's perspective, even though pitched at Victoria, the discussion is national in scope:

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pr ... yfAhzJEuwQ
This is a situation where a rep from Transport For NSW could travel to St Marys and negotiate with Custom Bus about a government contract to build e buses like the deal that the Victorian government has with Volgren witch would help if Custom Denning has a universal e bus body witch fits around any electric bus chasssis that the big 3 European bus manufacturers (Mercedes Benz Volvo and Scania) feed into the Australian bus market witch is a issue that a diesel to ev upgrade of the Endeavour could fix
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Campbelltown busboy wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:40 pm This is a situation where a rep from Transport For NSW could travel to St Marys and negotiate with Custom Bus about a government contract to build e buses like the deal that the Victorian government has with Volgren witch would help if Custom Denning has a universal e bus body witch fits around any electric bus chasssis that the big 3 European bus manufacturers (Mercedes Benz Volvo and Scania) feed into the Australian bus market witch is a issue that a diesel to ev upgrade of the Endeavour could fix
The biggest European electric bus manufacturer is Skoda. There are other significant players like Hess and Solaris and a whole lot of OEMs. The Swedish and Germans are major diesel manufacturers making a late run for electric now that they've seen the writing on the wall and they're using their well-developed PR machines to make them look more significant than they are - which AB&C Magazine uncritically regurgitates!

Unlike most diesel buses, It's not really necessary to buy a complete electric chassis. Custom Denning's approach of building a monocoque vehicle, for which drive components are sourced from the best OEM's, is the best one. I don't think there's a need for them to accommodate other chassis.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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tonyp wrote: Unlike most diesel buses, It's not really necessary to buy a complete electric chassis. Custom Denning's approach of building a monocoque vehicle, for which drive components are sourced from the best OEM's, is the best one. I don't think there's a need for them to accommodate other chassis.
Except history shows that Australian made integral buses have never captured much of a market share. The most recent example, Bustech's XDi integral, only achieved significant sales by being purchased by sister Calabro group companies Sunbus and Surfside.

Going further back while Austral, Denning and MotorCoach, dominated the market with their integral coaches, they were less successful in the bus market, with the majority of their bus output being on chassis by the European and Japanese players.

If Custom were to walk away from bodying other chassis, it could find itself with a much smaller market share.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

Coaches are good as "integrals" because the bins underneath can provide part of the structural strength/rigidity.

It might be too complex to devise a 12m integral standard bus.

Low floor buses are partly chassisless but require structural members in the roofline to help hold them together.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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boronia wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:42 pm It might be too complex to devise a 12m integral standard bus.
Lol Europe is full of them! And Custom Denning has just created one here - as well as Bustech with an electric now it seems. It will be very different with electric buses because the drive system can be sourced from a lot of different OEMs. With diesels, there are major engine manufacturers who also market the drivetrain incorporated in a complete chassis and for most customers that was an acceptable way of buying a bus. Buy a chassis and build a body on it.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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This is too funny to pass by. On Bus Australia Facebook, an Element demonstrator being used as marshalls transport at the Bathurst races. I've driven up this quite stiff hill in a Corolla and it struggled with it. I think the Element does a better job!

https://www.facebook.com/10000751035293 ... 0933054447

The bus is currently with Bathurst Buslines.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=292 ... 1481112361
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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You've posted private or otherwise unavailable Facebook links.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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jpp42 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:02 am You've posted private or otherwise unavailable Facebook links.
Sorry about that, I was assuming at least some members of this board belong to this group. The photos show the Bathurst Busways Element serving as marshalls transport during the 1000 this weekend. The video shows the bus climbing up to Brocks Skyline from a standing start on the hill like it was on a casual stroll in the park. I know that electric buses climb a hill better than a diesel, but the acceleration and speed at which it was going on a hill was seriously impressive.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by blow1940 »

It is good to see the bus has acctually been usable for a day, the vehicle was in the shed for the major of the time it has been in Bathurst as it was not driveable, it then had to be taken back to sydney to be worked on.

Each operator that has had the vehicle has had issues with the vehicle not being able to complete its services or even start them.

Just because it has a sunken isle at the rear does not make this vehicle Australias best, I am also sure you will find many passegner will not use the rear facing seats as they wont want to be rubbing each others private areas with their knees.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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blow1940 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:14 pm Just because it has a sunken isle at the rear does not make this vehicle Australias best,
I don't think anyone is saying that is the case, it certainly wouldn't be impressing anyone definitely if we'd had the European style low floors to start off with (compared to low entries Australia is mass flooded with). I'd say something coming from our homeland, built locally with local jobs would make it the best in that regards but I am aware there is a lot more to this then what I've said that needs to be taken into account. I don't really think one sees the "love & care" put into the Chinese E-Buses (no offence) that are starting to enter the market, I mean again on the whole topic of the "sunken isle" why on earth do those Chinese E-Buses even need it? Not really love or care there. See?

I'd want to state the fact a company in Australia even remotely pulled this off is amazing and definitely is something we should be proud of, we keep off shoring every automotive manufacturing opptunity because either no one puts their hands up or the mobs that are around don't have the power at this time to pull off such a thing so we're stuck with imports.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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tonyp wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:34 am
jpp42 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:02 am You've posted private or otherwise unavailable Facebook links.
Sorry about that, I was assuming at least some members of this board belong to this group. The photos show the Bathurst Busways Element serving as marshalls transport during the 1000 this weekend. The video shows the bus climbing up to Brocks Skyline from a standing start on the hill like it was on a casual stroll in the park. I know that electric buses climb a hill better than a diesel, but the acceleration and speed at which it was going on a hill was seriously impressive.
This is a good way to test how test a ev or electric bus on Mount Panorama go around clockwise witch means your heading up to the top of the mountain by heading up the dipper and esses witch would be steeper then heading up in the anti clockwise direction racetrack I've actually been around the track in the clockwise direction in a 2011 Toyota Camry with my brother in law
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