NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Passenger 57
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Passenger 57 »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:49 pm Given the services are expected to run every 5mins (it seems the 3min service level originally proposed won't happen, at least not initially)
These times are for service frequencies on the trunk portion I believe so a 6 min charging time at the termini works with a single charger but yes the systems needs to accommodate more than on time running.
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1whoknows
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by 1whoknows »

Such systems are not built around a full recharge after each trip but rather a top up. The bus could leave the depot in the morning with a fullcharge - lets say each one hour return trip uses up 10% so on thatbasis you could do max 9 round trips before returning to depot. But the top up option could put, say, 5% back in after each trip so you can now get a 14-15 trip day out of it.

I've seen this type of thing in various cities in Europe. Take for example Vienna where electric midibuses run through the old town on a loop of just over 20 minutes. Three buses are used running every 10 minutes. The terminus/ lay up is adjacent to the ring road which carries the trams so a simple wire extension crosses the road to the bus stop. One bus arrives about 2 minutes after the last one left, up goes panto, driver gets out to have a smoke, scratch his balls, use the dunny or whatever, 5-6 mins later driver gets back in, panto goes down, pax load and away we go.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

1whoknows wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:45 am Such systems are not built around a full recharge after each trip but rather a top up. The bus could leave the depot in the morning with a fullcharge - lets say each one hour return trip uses up 10% so on thatbasis you could do max 9 round trips before returning to depot. But the top up option could put, say, 5% back in after each trip so you can now get a 14-15 trip day out of it.

I've seen this type of thing in various cities in Europe. Take for example Vienna where electric midibuses run through the old town on a loop of just over 20 minutes. Three buses are used running every 10 minutes. The terminus/ lay up is adjacent to the ring road which carries the trams so a simple wire extension crosses the road to the bus stop. One bus arrives about 2 minutes after the last one left, up goes panto, driver gets out to have a smoke, scratch his balls, use the dunny or whatever, 5-6 mins later driver gets back in, panto goes down, pax load and away we go.
What drives this approach is to reduce the amount of batteries needed in order to minimise loss of passenger capacity due to weight. Other jurisdictions don't like the limitations of downtime, so in-motion charging (which also minimises battery weight) is used.

I don't know that the Chinese-influenced Australian approach of loading the bus up with batteries to run all day, thus inflicting a great loss of passenger capacity, is that popular in busier operations in Europe. It's OK if the operation isn't that busy. The Ebusco 3.0 sets out to address this issue by reducing the structural weight of the bus itself. After all, the very purpose of an artic is to carry lots of people.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Mr OC Benz wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:20 pm
A recent media release from Ebusco suggests their new Ebusco 3.0 18 metre articulated version has a range of up to 700 kilometres, which is significant if true. It basically negates any need for opportunity charging and well and truly exceeds the range of many existing diesel articulated buses. All while still carrying 150 passengers (Euro standard) and only needing single tyres on each axle, allowing for a wider interior aisle from front to rear.

https://www.ebusco.com/au/ebusco-reveal ... -18-meter/
Here is some more information on Ebusco 3.0 artic, including a video on how the body is built.

https://www.ebusco.com/electric-buses/ebusco-3-0/
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

I found a very interesting news item in the current Australian Bus about the use of diesels instead of electrics on weekend services from Transit Systems' Leichhardt depot. Apparently the reason is that electricity grid issues in the area are constraining the ability to keep the whole fleet charged up. I was wondering when this little issue of power supply was going to raise its head. To operate electric transit, you need an abundant, robust power supply. (To think Leichhardt Depot used to have four power stations within a 4 km radius too, two of them dedicated to public transport!)

I wonder if this is also the reason for other operators typically having only a minority of their electric fleets on the road? From all reports, they all love their electrics and all electric rosters are now integrated into regular rosters afaik, so there's no discrimination about what type of bus can be used. Yet, proportionally to fleet sizes, there aren't that many on the road.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by eddy »

Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu http://www.parrahub.org.au/
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: Apparently the reason is that electricity grid issues in the area are constraining the ability to keep the whole fleet charged up. I was wondering when this little issue of power supply was going to raise its head.
Hardly surprising, how many have new train fleets been ordered only to be parked up when the penny drops that the infrastructure needs to be upgraded.
tonyp wrote: From all reports, they all love their electrics and all electric rosters are now integrated into regular rosters afaik, so there's no discrimination about what type of bus can be used. Yet, proportionally to fleet sizes, there aren't that many on the road.
The constant bell ringing on Custom Dennings must wear a bit thin on drivers, it is tedious enough as a passenger sitting towards the rear. Transdev John Holland are still only using theirs sparingly in region 9.
eddy wrote: Don’t buy these electric buses https://havanatimes.org/diaries/jorge/h ... ine-buses/
An article from 9 years ago. But then why would anyone buy an electric bus when they could buy the trailer bus instead?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

What a shame. I saw a video of a Gemilang electric entering and another leaving Leichardt depot at night time and was absolutely dazzled at the sheer silence of it driving past the camera each time. The residents must appreciate it also.

I recently overheard an electric crossover wagon taking off briskly in front of my place and was really taken with it's high pitch whirring as it took off.

I made my own EV back in the 1980s by inserting the shank of a Makita cordless drill into the front wheel of my skateboard and it would pull me along the footpath with gusto. Only problem, range was severely limited. A range of about 30 metres!
It's really pushing the bounds of technology to rely on battery power alone to propel a bus all day.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

tonyp wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:28 pm I found a very interesting news item in the current Australian Bus about the use of diesels instead of electrics on weekend services from Transit Systems' Leichhardt depot. Apparently the reason is that electricity grid issues in the area are constraining the ability to keep the whole fleet charged up. I was wondering when this little issue of power supply was going to raise its head. To operate electric transit, you need an abundant, robust power supply. (To think Leichhardt Depot used to have four power stations within a 4 km radius too, two of them dedicated to public transport!)

I wonder if this is also the reason for other operators typically having only a minority of their electric fleets on the road? From all reports, they all love their electrics and all electric rosters are now integrated into regular rosters afaik, so there's no discrimination about what type of bus can be used. Yet, proportionally to fleet sizes, there aren't that many on the road.

The electric buses provide big savings on operating costs and it was not surprising that after the delivery of the updated batch BYD units in mid 2021, followed by a further three batches of BYD units (Oct 2021, Nov 2021 & Apr 2022), that these units were used as much as possible for many months. This means that other types of buses, particularly gas buses, were not being used as much on weekends. This is where the real issue is.

Leichhardt Depot has the ability to mitigate external factors that may impact on power supply. The depot workshop has solar panels all over the roof top, a TESLA battery storage system on site plus the buses have regenerative braking which reduces the need for the requirement of receiving a full charge when returning to the depot.

In mid 2022 a new transformer became operational in the Inner West to facilitate the power needs in the area to support the bus depot without affecting the power supply of the surrounding community. I’m not aware of any “ongoing issues with the electricity grid in the area” as stated in the Bus Australia article. If such an issue of buses not all being able to be as charged as stated in the article did exist, wouldn’t it also affect weekday operations to a certain degree as opposed to just causing issues on weekends only? The article doesn’t provide any further detail about the apparent ongoing issues.

The article also displays an old SCANIA L113CRL operating a 389 through Paddington. The caption correctly states that this type of bus is not seen operating route 389 due to the route being designated as a headway route and the bus also not being fitted with headway equipment. What is not mentioned is that headway services are only Monday - Friday 6am to 8pm, so in theory any type of rigid bus can be dispatched on a weekend.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Stu wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:26 pm the bus also not being fitted with headway equipment.
What is headway equipment please?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

ICE vehicles don't take well to sitting for days, unlike electrics, so it figures they want to keep a minimum amount in use to circulate in the quiet times to keep them moving.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Stu wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:26 pm The electric buses provide big savings on operating costs and it was not surprising that after the delivery of the updated batch BYD units in mid 2021, followed by a further three batches of BYD units (Oct 2021, Nov 2021 & Apr 2022), that these units were used as much as possible for many months. This means that other types of buses, particularly gas buses, were not being used as much on weekends. This is where the real issue is.

Leichhardt Depot has the ability to mitigate external factors that may impact on power supply. The depot workshop has solar panels all over the roof top, a TESLA battery storage system on site plus the buses have regenerative braking which reduces the need for the requirement of receiving a full charge when returning to the depot.

In mid 2022 a new transformer became operational in the Inner West to facilitate the power needs in the area to support the bus depot without affecting the power supply of the surrounding community. I’m not aware of any “ongoing issues with the electricity grid in the area” as stated in the Bus Australia article. If such an issue of buses not all being able to be as charged as stated in the article did exist, wouldn’t it also affect weekday operations to a certain degree as opposed to just causing issues on weekends only? The article doesn’t provide any further detail about the apparent ongoing issues.
Yes, that's all what I assumed, so the article surprised me and I'm disappointed at the reporting if it's not correct.

On the other side of the coin, I do regularly observe electric bus operations on Anytrip and it does seem to me that, for each Sydney operator, only a minority (often small minority) of their electric fleet is on the road at any given time. This doesn't make sense if they're charged overnight and, as you say, their operating costs are less. Or are some buses not identified correctly and operating under diesel bus IDs?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

Passenger 57 wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:37 pm
Stu wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:26 pm the bus also not being fitted with headway equipment.
What is headway equipment please?
Tablet mounted inside the bus for the driver to view and backend software to monitor and record data for future analysis.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Thanks. I took your original post to imply that a bus without headway equipment would be incapable of operating such a route but I'm guessing this is more of a strong preference. Are there still timetables for these headway services? How would they been operated in the past? Inspectors deployed on a route telling drivers to speed up or slow down?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

In this post, I linked a video which explained how London Transport managed service punctuality in times gone by with "BESI" (I believe that's the correct way to write it).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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Having seen that video (as well as the 9 Road) I was amazed to see such high tech equipment in Routemasters with their red LED digital read out. Not something you expect in an RM cab beck then!
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They had some very smart people in LT in those days. Then the bean counters took over and they wanted everything off the shelf. It went downhill after that with a succession of failures.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

Passenger 57 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 5:32 pm Thanks. I took your original post to imply that a bus without headway equipment would be incapable of operating such a route but I'm guessing this is more of a strong preference. Are there still timetables for these headway services? How would they been operated in the past? Inspectors deployed on a route telling drivers to speed up or slow down?
Timetables still exist, some operators have headway services included in the contract although headway in each region must be at a different stage of development and operation which is maybe why TfNSW have not made a major announcement to explain to the public what headway is and how it works.

STA were operating some services as a headway service behind the scenes.

The tablet software indicates to the driver where the bus should be based on the bus in front. There is also support from the radio room as well.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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I recall reading an article many years ago about BESI in London.
If a service was running late and the next one was close behind, they cut the service short, move the passengers back, and it took up its running in the opposite direction.
In Sydney a few years ago I’d often see three m10s chasing each other along Anzac Pde and wondered why they did not have a similar procedure.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Inflexible thinking that's why! Plus transport people here are so stupid!!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

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It has happened in Sydney too. I remember catching a 400 from Burwood to Campsie where the bus which was supposed to do the trip was cut short at Campsie and turned around to Bondi. Burwood which did not normally operate 400's provided a bus to operate from Burwood to Campsie to meet the bus which turned around at Campsie.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Then there are places like Perth, where (in theory) failing to complete a trip carries penalties for the contractor. Say there's a blockage in or around the City, rather than curtailing services, the preference is towards leaving things be, and ending up with great swathes of late running, which, given the preference towards tightly-scheduled runs and turnarounds (<5mins in most instances), causes fairly dramatic cascading effects across the network.

Especially now in the information era, there should be no reason why services cannot be managed effectively on the fly. Nor should there ever be a reason to flood a traffic jam with buses thinking it'll sort itself out :roll:
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

So in 1983 when I was in year 4 they were doing it in London but in 2023 there's a general refusal to do it here.
Just stick to staid practice that doesn't work because it's comfortable. How very Straya!!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Passenger 57 »

So if I'm grasping this headway management thing properly does it cause an on-time bus to be delayed just because a previous bus starts running late? Does it take into account passenger loadings? The nice thing about bunching is that buses with the same destination can skip stops which speeds up the trip of each bus assuming they don't need to set down at each stop and leap frog each other. Why do I get the feeling that headway management might be somewhat of a con unless additional buses can be introduced to a route or passengers transferred between buses.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Swift »

Or just put up special and drop off only which I was instructed to do. I got caught doing it myself once as the RR were taking forever to respond. The inspector gave me a verbal warning that time. I later heard he was breaking the rules himself in his driving days. May explain his affable demeanor as he gave me the warning!
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