NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

I am not a facebook user but in the past week I have found out that Bus Australia has created a facebook page but I have no idea what is on it.
Living in the Shire.
Merc1107
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

That group is several years old, but cannot recall who runs it.

Plenty of nice photos, but being FB, not conducive to rigorous discussion (which there wasn't much of last I was on there).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by J_Busworth »

From memory the Admins of the group on facebook are made up of a number of people who are also Admins on this site. The group has been around for the better part of a decade now.

It's predominant use is for sharing photos, not much else really. People often will share a photo of a bus in order to inform people of where notable buses are operating, such as the Electric Demonstrators of late.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

J_Busworth wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:51 pm From memory the Admins of the group on facebook are made up of a number of people who are also Admins on this site. The group has been around for the better part of a decade now.

It's predominant use is for sharing photos, not much else really. People often will share a photo of a bus in order to inform people of where notable buses are operating, such as the Electric Demonstrators of late.
Apparently a couple of what are described as reviews of electric buses have come to the (favourable) attention of manufacturers. I'd be interested to read them.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

J_Busworth wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:51 pm From memory the Admins of the group on facebook are made up of a number of people who are also Admins on this site. The group has been around for the better part of a decade now.

It's predominant use is for sharing photos, not much else really. People often will share a photo of a bus in order to inform people of where notable buses are operating, such as the Electric Demonstrators of late.
This board has been around since 2004 so this board has been around for 17 years

Plus electric bus demonstrators are being trialed by operators so they can give them a go before a order is made
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by robert »

Yesterday I travelled on m/o 6520, an Element (demonstrator?), doing the 1.53pm route 270 from Terrey Hills. First day in service with Forest?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

robert wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:36 am Yesterday I travelled on m/o 6520, an Element (demonstrator?), doing the 1.53pm route 270 from Terrey Hills. First day in service with Forest?
And how was it Robert compared to other electric buses you've ridden?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by robert »

tonyp wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 am
robert wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:36 am Yesterday I travelled on m/o 6520, an Element (demonstrator?), doing the 1.53pm route 270 from Terrey Hills. First day in service with Forest?
And how was it Robert compared to other electric buses you've ridden?
Tony

Fairly quiet, even if not totally, a hum possibly from the aircon (?). But certainly a good turn of speed along the 80km/h part of Forest Way.

It is close to 40 years since I have been on any other electric bus (trolley buses in NZ), so won't attempt a direct comparison.

Very glad to see NSW transport authorities and operators embrace clean technology - the way of the future! What would KAB have thought?
For information about private & Government bus routes in Sydney, look at http://www.sydneybusroutes.com
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Bovways »

robert wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:04 pm Fairly quiet, even if not totally, a hum possibly from the aircon (?). But certainly a good turn of speed along the 80km/h part of Forest Way.
I'm happy to say too from a drivers' perspective they are lovely to drive. Certainly the best low floor since the O405NH / B10BLE and I'd even say up there with an O405, once you get used to the O400 / PR100.2 style body roll! They are very comfortable to drive, limitless smooth power under your right foot, and the lift-off regenerative braking is like the world's best lift-off retarder. It only took a few minutes to get used to driving them with one pedal, with the regen slowing you down enough for roundabouts and speed humps; the brake pedal is only needed for a final stop. Every driver I have talked to loves them.

If you take pride in your driving, it is very easy to give your passengers a lovely smooth ride; something I can't say for a lot of computer-throttle and computer-braked diesel low floor jerky horrors of the past decade or two. Almost enough to get me out from behind a desk and back behind the wheel!

C :)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Bovways wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:40 am
I'm happy to say too from a drivers' perspective they are lovely to drive. Certainly the best low floor since the O405NH / B10BLE and I'd even say up there with an O405, once you get used to the O400 / PR100.2 style body roll! They are very comfortable to drive, limitless smooth power under your right foot, and the lift-off regenerative braking is like the world's best lift-off retarder. It only took a few minutes to get used to driving them with one pedal, with the regen slowing you down enough for roundabouts and speed humps; the brake pedal is only needed for a final stop. Every driver I have talked to loves them.

If you take pride in your driving, it is very easy to give your passengers a lovely smooth ride; something I can't say for a lot of computer-throttle and computer-braked diesel low floor jerky horrors of the past decade or two. Almost enough to get me out from behind a desk and back behind the wheel!

C :)
A most interesting summary thanks Bovways. For comparison, have you driven any of the other electrics operating here - BYD, Yutong, BCI?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Does anyone on here know if Busabout have any electric buses yet I would understand if that information is restricted to the moderators of the fleet lists as Busabout don't want their current fleet on the fleet lists
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

Bovways wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:40 am If you take pride in your driving, it is very easy to give your passengers a lovely smooth ride; something I can't say for a lot of computer-throttle and computer-braked diesel low floor jerky horrors of the past decade or two. Almost enough to get me out from behind a desk and back behind the wheel!
Really pleased to hear the Element has the right 'feel' particularly in the footwork department, especially being someone who values a smooth passenger experience.

As you say, the computer-throttles and braking (particularly the latter, I feel) cause no end of frustration in trying to deliver a smooth ride to the passengers. Without naming-names, one manufacturer sets their buses up such that the pedal offers insufficient 'variation' in the braking effect, it's a bit on or off - although I'd trust these to pull me up in an emergency. Another's pedals are spongy, the brakes seemingly ineffective and not setup to properly work smoothly with the automatic neutral that has existed on gearboxes for decades now(!). I'll never understand what the manufacturers thought was wrong with the brake pedal directly acting on the pneumatic brake system - it all reeks of solutions in search of problems.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Bovways »

tonyp wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:49 pm A most interesting summary thanks Bovways. For comparison, have you driven any of the other electrics operating here - BYD, Yutong, BCI?
Thanks Tony. I'm in the lucky position of when we have something on trial, I get given a drive as I don't hold back with my opinions!

I've driven the Yutong, and was very (very!) surprised with how pleasant it was too - so much that I would like to try a Yutong diesel low foor out of interest. Given my only exposure to driving Chinese buses was the ex-Caringbah BCI at Veolia, I was expecting it to be trash. Quite the opposite! Its main oddity was steering that was very light and almost entirely lacking feel, which I found different, but at urban route speeds I didn't think it was necessarily a bad thing. The regenerative braking was on the brake pedal like many retarders, but the level of regeneration was based on how fast you initially hit the pedal, rather than how far you pushed it; in some way like hydraulic brakes compared to air brakes. It took me a little while to adapt, but I felt quite adept at it within my hour-long test drive. Again, different but not necessarily bad. In terms of driving I would rate it again better than modern diesel low floors on the whole, but not a big step up like the CD Element is. Still, I would rather do a shift in one of these than any modern diesel.

The biggest and most surprising good points were more to do with the driver-centric body design, rather than anything specifically electric bus related. It had a more practical, comfortable cab than anything I have seen from an Australian bus builder. For example:
  • A separate air conditioning system for the driver, with adjustable temperature, I think 8 or so overhead vents, plus face and crotch level vents as well. For someone who bakes in the sun like me, it was very welcome.
  • Door controls on the dash to the right of the steering wheel, in full view, rather than poking at a switch down the drivers side under the window. It also had a third switch which opened (or closed) both doors at once, saving a few seconds at every stop
  • A fixed pane of glass in front of the drivers' window sliding section, through which you viewed the off-side mirror. This pane was fitted with an electronic demisting element to keep vision to the mirror clean. In just about every other bus I've driven, I've ended up wet on a steamy rainy day, having to have the drivers' window slid open so I could see my off-side mirror.
cheers,
C :)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Bovways »

Merc1107 wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:07 pm I'll never understand what the manufacturers thought was wrong with the brake pedal directly acting on the pneumatic brake system - it all reeks of solutions in search of problems.
I agree there! I get the feeling it makes a below average driver safer, but definitely dumbs down a good driver! Some I would try all different techniques in but could never find a consistently smooth stop. The variability is the worse thing to me - some buses you just don't know what will happen each time you brake, which is a terrible feeling.

I think back a decade or so to the days where I was rail bus driving most weekends. If I had an o405 or similar even an early low floor (L94 etc) with 'normal' brakes I'd get compliments most trips thanking me for my smooth driving. In an B12BLE, o500 or K230 though - generally nothing.

C :)
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Bovways »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:57 pm Does anyone on here know if Busabout have any electric buses yet I would understand if that information is restricted to the moderators of the fleet lists as Busabout don't want their current fleet on the fleet lists
I believe there are five BYD Gemilangs registered. I'm not sure if they are in service or not.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

MO 5482 Custom Denning Element delivered to Busways, first of an order of six.

CDBusways1.jpg
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

So that seems to be an official NSW electric livery with no chevrons.

It's interesting that the wording is about zero emissions, not electric.

Some interesting info on the massive expansion at Transit Systems Leichhardt depot.
That's a lot of solar and batteries.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... epot-in-oz
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by robert »

Photo of m/o 5482 shown with desto sign for the extension of route 779 from Erskine Park to Kemps Creek, which only started yesterday. New bus on newly extended route!
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:09 pm So that seems to be an official NSW electric livery with no chevrons.

It's interesting that the wording is about zero emissions, not electric.
The current fashion is that they're called ZEBs. The emission is at Vales Point. It looks like we're lucky that the decorations don't cover the windows (yet), unlike some of the terrible wraps in other states. Note the different front end for this operator.
robert wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:37 pm Photo of m/o 5482 shown with desto sign for the extension of route 779 from Erskine Park to Kemps Creek, which only started yesterday. New bus on newly extended route!
It will boldly go where no bus has gone before.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

With the great news of the various arrivals of Electric buses and their success stories, I am hoping within the next year or two Operators up here in the Hunter Valley Region start trailing them, probably too little too late but still worth an attempt if their serious. With the B10BLE's next on Newcastle Transports retirement list it would be nice if they use that opptunity to replace them with E-Friendly buses at that point instead of more diesel.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... s-contract
The contract will see the introduction of 125 electric buses over the next eight years, delivering more sustainable transport options for the local community from two newly electrified depots in Brookvale and Mona Vale, it confirms.
Of course that was for Sydney (and as AFAIK still is the plan). What ever the deal is with their Newcastle Operation, their Contract must have something in the pipeline for the upgrade of environmentally friendly buses?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Tim Williams »

A high proportion of Singapore's bua services start and finish at interchanges, where there are driver facilities - subsidised canteens, toilets etc. I am not aware of any changing of drivers mid-route.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Tim Williams »

It might have tonyp or someone else who made a comment somewhere about some German urban electric caught up in a depot fire - a lithium battery problem??
If we can put up with trams/LRT's running on fixed routes with (mostly) overhead wires and the necessary support structure, why were trolleybuses abandoned in most places? Trolly's were silent, reliable and less maintenence intensive than buses and would lighter and not prone to catching fire, as seems to be case with lithium battery equipped electric buses.
Surely there is a place for trolleybuses on trunk well patronised and well established routes.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Merc1107 »

The argument seems to be the same, or similar to that used for trams. A lot of it was ripped up in the post-war years as the systems had deteriorated and were in need of substantial modernisation. Was the infrastructure shared between modes then? If it was, perhaps it made more sense to gut the lot, rather than have to upgrade for the buses or trams (not both).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Tim Williams wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:29 pm It might have tonyp or someone else who made a comment somewhere about some German urban electric caught up in a depot fire - a lithium battery problem??
If we can put up with trams/LRT's running on fixed routes with (mostly) overhead wires and the necessary support structure, why were trolleybuses abandoned in most places? Trolly's were silent, reliable and less maintenence intensive than buses and would lighter and not prone to catching fire, as seems to be case with lithium battery equipped electric buses.
Surely there is a place for trolleybuses on trunk well patronised and well established routes.
Anybody who has had much experience with modern trolleybuses (the ones that can also run off-wire) will cringe at the conceptual clumsiness of the battery-electric bus, with its massive additional weight (resulting in less capacity due to axle load), its higher centre of gravity, the extent of its downtime due to the need to charge, or additionally, infrastructure costs for opportunity charging en route, and risk of catching fire during charging.

On the other side of the coin, setting up a modern, in-motion-charging trolleybus system will still need overhead power infrastructure covering up to a third of the route (but no longer necessary for all of it), plus some of the above disadvantages of batteries outlined above, as they are now added to the gear on board a modern trolleybus.

The upshot in general is that those cities (predominantly in Central and Eastern Europe) that retained their trolleybus systems (and also their tram systems) are incredibly fortunate and are already sitting on the golden lode of public transport technology as we move away from oil towards electric propulsion. In western Europe, America and almost everywhere else they embraced oil and now the chickens have come home to roost. Germany and Sweden in particular in Europe, as leaders in diesel manufacturing, abandoned excellent trolleybus systems en mass, together with the expertise that went with that, so they're both playing catchup (ignoring the slick marketing where they try to portray themselves as leaders). Those bus garage fires in Germany started in electric Citaros being recharged. Read between the lines what you will!

So, in general, it's easier nowadays for a city that doesn't have an existing trolleybus system to simply go with battery buses. On the other hand, the new Brisbane "metro"could well be a trolleybus system as it's on a fixed route. Indeed the buses are trolleybuses converted to battery buses that will need opportunity charging at the end of every run, insane. For cities with trolleybus systems, nowadays they're freed from total dependence on wires, so they have no need to convert to battery buses, indeed would start to have a few operational disadvantages (like lower capacity, increased downtime) if they did. So the trolleybus will be around for a long time. Bus Clowns of the Century award goes to Wellington NZ who had a fine trolleybus system powered by renewable geothermal energy and recently-renewed infrastructure and gave it up for diesels and battery.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

I think that's the answer. There is a lot of cost in maintaining the catenary (and track in terms of trams).

While electric buses are expensive upfront (both in the cost of batteries on the bus and charging stations at the depots), they are cheaper to operate, and obvious local environmental benefits.
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