NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Mr OC Benz
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Mr OC Benz »

tonyp wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:30 pm In terms of opening up the product range available for the RHD market, Singapore acquired in 2018 a couple of Linkker (Finland) 12 metre electric buses with bodies by Gemilang Malaysia. What's really interesting is that, I think for the first time in a RHD jurisdiction, these are a European-type three door bus with the third door behind the rear axle.

Image
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[from landtransportguru.net]

There is evidently some mechanical compromise in the conversion (I can guess at the possible reasons) in that there is a high floor between the second and third doors but the door thresholds themselves are low-entry (stepless). Not quite there, but obviously the concept of improved passenger handling is being approached in Singapore. These practices are slowly returning to RHD operations, step by step (pardon the pun) towards having no steps.

These buses have pantograph opportunity recharging at termini, not sure why. Maybe very long routes or greater power consumption because of air conditioning loads(?).
The silver bus is an autonomous bus undergoing trials. The green bus is one of 20 recently built three-door Linkker LM312's which just entered public service a few days ago coincidentally. They are step-free from front to rear with a minor "hump" over the rear axle between the centre and rear door.

Not quite the first three door RHD buses in Singapore though as 50 diesel MAN double deckers with three doors entered service a few months ago and there are 50 diesel ADL Enviro500 double deckers also with three doors entering service soon.

There is also another three door electric bus of unknown origin (Gemilang bodied, perhaps CRRC chassis?) in SG livery which presumably will undergo demonstration soon. It will be interesting to see whether further new bus orders (most likely to be all electric too) will require three doors going forward.
https://landtransportguru.net/new-3-doo ... singapore/
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Mr OC Benz wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:30 pm The silver bus is an autonomous bus undergoing trials. The green bus is one of 20 recently built three-door Linkker LM312's which just entered public service a few days ago coincidentally. They are step-free from front to rear with a minor "hump" over the rear axle between the centre and rear door.

Not quite the first three door RHD buses in Singapore though as 50 diesel MAN double deckers with three doors entered service a few months ago and there are 50 diesel ADL Enviro500 double deckers also with three doors entering service soon.

There is also another three door electric bus of unknown origin (Gemilang bodied, perhaps CRRC chassis?) in SG livery which presumably will undergo demonstration soon. It will be interesting to see whether further new bus orders (most likely to be all electric too) will require three doors going forward.
Thank you for plugging the information gap. I can only relate what I see in limited photos and descriptions online. I've found in the past with trams that some people misleadingly describe a ramp over axles as a high floor when, as it turns out, the ramp is actually stepless. One of those little hazards with uncovering information. It's good to see though that Singapore has mastered the stepless gangway and three doors in RHD format. Perhaps it may strike a light in Australia eventually. Any idea why they need opportunity charging in Singapore? Done a few years ago when the range of available electric buses was not so good perhaps?
Mr OC Benz
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Mr OC Benz »

Their other electric buses (BYD and Yutong) which do not have terminus charging were procured at the same time back in 2018 (it has taken 2-3 years for this order of electric buses to enter service!). I am not sure why ST Engineering/Linkker opted for opportunity charging but perhaps the LTA were open to testing different charging technologies. Of course since then, battery technology has improved significantly.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The wise transit agency/operator lets others be the guinea pigs bearing the costs and tribulations of new technology before deciding to proceed. It has been the same in the tram world with some cities rushing in to try new, unproven technology (whether it be vehicles or power supply), only to end up paying a cost and reliability penalty. The smart operator comes along later, picking up the mature, proven version. As with buses, the early rush for costly and time-consuming opportunity charging at stops has been overtaken by better technology (batteries in particular) that provide much greater range. Manufacturers' salesmen seeking to trial their new wares no doubt seek out jurisdictions with Transport Ministers who are prone to impulsive brainwaves and are easily seduced.

And so we have Newcastle Light Rail and its long pauses.
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

With electric buses I think we will get a variety of solutions dedicated to individual use case.

Batteries are the most expensive component, and are heavy - which might impact load limits.

So operators who have a lot of buses laying up for 20-40min at the same spot, might invest in opportunity charging.

Operators with central trunk routes that then fan out (thinking Brisbane and Adelaide in particular) might even find catenary/trolley a viable solution.
bussie
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by bussie »

One benefit of opportunity charging in the future is that it reduces the load on the power grid. Imagine in the future, having every vehicle, personal or commercial, charging only at night, worse if its on a hot summer night where residential power usage is higher due to air-conditioning units being used by more people.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

bussie wrote:One benefit of opportunity charging in the future is that it reduces the load on the power grid. Imagine in the future, having every vehicle, personal or commercial, charging only at night, worse if its on a hot summer night where residential power usage is higher due to air-conditioning units being used by more people.
Well not every vehicle.
Even in Summer not as much air-con after 10pm or midnight when most cheap ToU rates kick-in.

But to prevent the duck curve effect, I suspect encouraging workplace charging will be a key dynamic for the 9-5 crowd.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote: Batteries are the most expensive component, and are heavy - which might impact load limits.
In the UK where bus weights are displayed as part of the operator accreditation details, and the same bodies are fitted to both diesel and electric chassis allowing a like-for-like comparison, the latter are over one tonne heavier.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by rogf24 »

I photo on Instagram of the Singapore bus from the rear. https://www.instagram.com/p/CTEByKqn5Gj/
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

tonyp wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:37 pmOn a general point, they advised that opening of centre/rear doors was at the driver's discretion (risk assessment in each case) only, as guided by individual bus operators' Safety Management and Workplace Risk Assessment Plans.
This relates to buses in NSW generally, not just electric buses, but on rereading this I realise that I didn't really convey the full picture conveyed to me by TfNSW. This is that, not only can drivers exercise discretion about opening rear doors for exit according to operator guidelines, they can also open them for entry on the same basis. So, in short, rear door entry may be allowed on a limited, as needed basis. A long way off a universal policy providing passengers with consistency, but at least a small breakthrough.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Ten Custom Denning Elements ordered for State Transit Waverley Depot:

CDSTA1.jpg
CDSTA2.jpg
Jurassic_Joke
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

This is all very nice, I’m glad to see NSW getting on board with more and more Zero Emission buses, but I’m really adamant that there should be high capacity electric buses too, preferably artic’s. I feel like all the 12m electric buses we’ve tried have too few seats, especially so on all the BYD buses.

James in the extract above talks about driving the 12m Denning on route 333 - yeah thats sweet, but totally inappropriate capacity bus for that route (yes I know we are in Covid times but for when we return to normal).

Articulated electric buses do exist, couple of 100% low floor, 3-door options that come to mind are the Ebusco 2.2 LE 18m as well, as well as the VDL Citea Electric. Both come in standard versions but below are pics of their articulated versions


Ebusco: https://busposities.nl/fotos/bladeren/type-ebusco2218

VDL: https://busposities.nl/fotos/bladeren/t ... happij-gvb

In this region of Holland where these Ebusco’s are running, they are now entering service to replace Euro-6 Solaris Urbino 18m buses and extra-long Mercedes-Benz Capacity L 21m buses (21m bendy bus with 4 double doors is something Sydney can only ever dream of really).

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that some random bureaucrat in Transport will just say “nope we decided we won’t have bendy buses a while ago and that’s that”
Last edited by Jurassic_Joke on Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The only reason that Elements were trialled on 333 was that they were subjecting it to a tough operating environment. It needn't be read that rigids are replacing artics on the 333 at this stage. When they arrive, no doubt they will be run on many other routes requiring only rigids. The question of the future of artics in NSW is still an open book. There certainly are already electric artics available on the market that could replace them. They would (at this stage of the technology) need a little extra charging infrastructure, as would double deckers, that's all.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by bussie »

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/compone ... is-brazil/

Mercedes Benz is looking into importing the Brazilian eO500U into Oceania. The diesel O500Us are currently marketed as the OH1830LE in Australia.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The Volvo BZL electric chassis has been formally released today. This is the bus that Volgren is bodying for Perth.

https://www.busaustralia.com/forum/view ... 7#p1082477
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Nice video here from Bjorn (who is an electric vehicle Youtuber) of a Mercedes eCitaro.
https://youtu.be/Om3uVW4lskE

Contains quite a bit of detail on the bus, battery and drive system including regen system.

This one is 441kWh with five batteries on the roof and two in the rear where the vertical motor used to be.

Flat floor most of the way to the rear
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:31 pm Nice video here from Bjorn (who is an electric vehicle Youtuber) of a Mercedes eCitaro.
https://youtu.be/Om3uVW4lskE

Contains quite a bit of detail on the bus, battery and drive system including regen system.

This one is 441kWh with five batteries on the roof and two in the rear where the vertical motor used to be.

Flat floor most of the way to the rear
I can see a couple of issues. First, it has hub motors which add to the maintenance costs and downtime compared to a separate motor connected by a diff. Secondly, because of the hub motors it has an electronic diff which characteristically produces excessive tyre wear (a significant disadvantage of BYDs too).

Inside, it's a typical European city bus (as is the Element and the Volvo BZL), but the Germans don't, in my view, do interiors as well. the rear aisle seems a little narrow and, worst of all, there is some sort of cabinet in the back corner that must cost 2 to 4 seats. It seems that they've just lazily recycled the diesel engine/ air cooler cabinet. It's unlikely to find its way to Australia unless they bring it into compliance with ADR.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Stu »

There is a Custom Denning Element demo that has been on loan to Transit Systems since last week.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Fleet Lists »

Living in the Shire.
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Full badging and Opal equipment installed. Looks more than a short loan.
Linto63
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Linto63 »

moa999 wrote: Full badging and Opal equipment installed. Looks more than a short loan.
Probably weeks or even months rather than days, but that is has remained on Queensland plates would suggest it is only short term. This one having previously operated with Punchbowl may have already been wired for the Opal equipment, so just a case of fitting the readers.
Noel
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Noel »

moa999 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 9:03 am Full badging and Opal equipment installed. Looks more than a short loan.
It had all this equipment installed when it was previously with Punchbowl Bus Co.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

Gaussin has entered the Australian Market and partnered with Nexport, the bus they're launching looks like a competitor to the Hino Poncho/Poncho Z

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... ustralasia
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

What happens with Maianbar Bundeena when it comes to their e bus would they need to order one themselves or would Transdev have to give a e bus to them. How would a small company like Maianbar Bundeena afford to install charging infrastructure to charge a e bus witch means that the Maianbar Bundeena e bus would have to be charged at Transdev Taren Point if they can't charge their e bus at their depot
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Apparently there are reviews of electric buses in NSW on a Facebook group called Bus Australia. Is that any relation to this forum? I've put in an application to join but I've had no response.
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