NSW Electric Bus Plan

[Linto63]

...look at the obsession with one-size-fits-all and the reluctance to invest in higher capacity artics.

Sydney has plenty of artics, perhaps too many given the keenness of the operators of the former State Transit regions to move them on.

.The Melbourne tram system suffers from a chronic lack of investment and has not been allowed to expand as population and potential catchments grow.

Or more likely Melbourne has realised that expanding its heavy rail network offers better value. While the tram network hasn't expanded in over 20 years, there has been much investment in improving and extending the heavy rail network in that time.

[Swift]

...look at the obsession with one-size-fits-all and the reluctance to invest in higher capacity artics.

Sydney has plenty of artics, perhaps too many given the keenness of the operators of the former State Transit regions to move them on.

Sounds to me more like a reluctance to use them at all but were handed them. Very by the numbers operators with no imaginative approach. Just do the minimum required to meet contractual obligations and collect.
The TNSW hierarchy probably mostly at fault though.

[Merc1107]

Sydney has plenty of artics, perhaps too many given the keenness of the operators of the former State Transit regions to move them on.

Given Sydney's artic fleet is somewhere between mid-life and nearly end-of-life (can anyone offer some further info on average fleet ages across the regions for those peering in from the outside?), I can well imagine specific buses would be beginning to manifest the types of serious faults that can result in a bus being permanently sidelined if any sort of replacement (regardless of capacity) can be sourced.

I'm not sure on the specifics of fleet management in NSW - but it seems to me, if the Government has sought to reduce the operational costs of buses by outsourcing, including decisions regarding the fleet, then it shouldn't be surprising at all if the contractors are making decisions to withdraw specific buses or bus types that are costing "too much" to operate. Indeed, the latest report from the Bus Taskforce alluded to the contractors making maintenance decisions (like halving the frequency of service compared to the OEM recommendation) based on the life of their contract, rather than the expected operational life of the bus ... so if they loose the contract, someone else gets to clean up the mess.

Seems to me NSW did not take the best approach in outsourcing its buses.

[J_Busworth]

Sydney has plenty of artics, perhaps too many given the keenness of the operators of the former State Transit regions to move them on.

In fact, there are hardly enough. The disdain of artics held by a certain operator and a certain former minister are very misguided. That operator has been directed to use them on weekends an increase their utilisation rate on weekdays but appears to have refused to do both to some extent.

On the other hand, other operators are desperately short of artics. At least three operators have attempted to source additional artics and had those requests denied. A further two were successful in managing to gain additional artics off the anti-artic operator, but again I gather the operators who were the beneficiaries would have liked even more artics.

In Region 9, the region with the most artics (91 at current count, out of 232 in service in Sydney), there is a desperate need for more artics and newer artics. Buses that are between 13 and 18 years old, in many cases running 24 hours a day, are getting very tired and could probably use some TLC. Shifts rostered for artics out of Randwick and Port Botany often get substituted for a rigid due to a lack of available artics, and this often leads to overcrowding.

There really needs to be a plan to get electric artics on the road in NSW. We need some now for growth (Port Botany, Willoughby and even Menai at U-Go could probably use some now) and we need a plan for a replacement order of at least 80 in 5 years to replace the Euro 3 B12s. 80 Euro 3 B12s replaced 30 O305Gs, at this point we could probably make use of 130 electric artics to replace the 80 Euro 3s.

[tonyp]

I don't think that Minister was against artics personally, rather he accepted uncritically the anti-artic zeitgeist that came from within Transport. Operators in general aren't against them and one even broke through the former ban to acquire a fleet of them. As for the operator who is against them, guessing who that is, they're in a region with four train lines and a light rail line through it, so there's plenty of high-capacity transport available and thus not so much need for artics. Artics are needed in regions where there's little or no rail or light rail to provide higher capacity.

Custom Denning is developing an electric artic, but it needs to be understood that high capacity electric buses can't (unless they're trolleybuses) run all day without stopping regularly to top up charge. So this will require a modified operation that undoubtedy will mean additional buses need to be be acquired to compensate for the increase in downtime. Still better than trying to move crowds with lots more low-capacity 12 metre electric buses (requiring more drivers in an environment of driver shortage).

The idea that we don't need more artics when population is growing is completely ludicrous. Look at what's happening in Europe where, in some cities, the proportion of artics in fleets has passed 50% and still growing. Some are even taking up double-artics, though at that point it becomes more an interim measure until tram or metro lines are extended. We have our first double-artics in Australia already.

[Linto63]

I don't think that Minister was against artics personally, rather he accepted uncritically the anti-artic zeitgeist that came from within Transport.

You can pretend that any decision you disagree with was made on Constance's watch was down to the bureaucracy, but "We are replacing those bendy buses with the double-deckers" doesn't sound like the words of somebody that is pro artic.

...one even broke through the former ban to acquire a fleet of them

The operator, Nowra Coaches I am guessing, may have made its own funding arrangements. Or perhaps given that the three buses in question were delivered only months after Constance's announcement, the order had already been placed.

...needs to be understood that high capacity electric buses can't (unless they're trolleybuses) run all day without stopping regularly to top up charge. So this will require a modified operation that undoubtedy will mean additional buses need to be be acquired to compensate for the increase in downtime.

That is an accepted fact of all EVs, same applies to rigids.

Look at what's happening in Europe where, in some cities, the proportion of artics in fleets has passed 50% and still growing.

Having a large fleet of artics that spend most of their day trundling around with plenty of spare capacity, as most Sydney buses do for much of the day, makes no sense either, it is about stiking a balance. While many of the trunk routes that were introduced in recent years; 100, 390X, 438X, 500X etc, were all initially operated by artics,, over time rigids have become more common.

[tonyp]

You can pretend that any decision you disagree with was made on Constance's watch was down to the bureaucracy, but "We are replacing those bendy buses with the double-deckers" doesn't sound like the words of somebody that is pro artic.

The operator, Nowra Coaches I am guessing, may have made its own funding arrangements. Or perhaps given that the three buses in question were delivered only months after Constance's announcement, the order had already been placed.

That is an accepted fact of all EVs, same applies to rigids.

Having a large fleet of artics that spend most of their day trundling around with plenty of spare capacity, as most Sydney buses do for much of the day, makes no sense either, it is about stiking a balance. While many of the trunk routes that were introduced in recent years; 100, 390X, 438X, 500X etc, were all initially operated by artics,, over time rigids have become more common.

Constance didn't come up with that decision off his own head, he doesn't know that much about those sort of details. It's something that was fed to him by Transport who convinced him and he was of course their mouthpiece.

Nowra Coaches had to bust through the rules to get those five artics, I suspect with some political help, and they are listed by Transport as a bespoke purchase (i.e. outside the Panel).

Rigid battery-electric urban buses in Australia can run all day on an overnight charge, but at the cost of passenger capacity. Region 8 is gearing up with the infrastructure for electric artics.

In a city the size of Sydney and with its relentless population growth, fewer and fewer buses are going to be running along trunk routes mostly empty during the day as time goes on. Any competent government will plan for what's coming up ahead, not what the experience was in the past. We're not in the days of the DGT any longer.

Incidentally, the new Panel (4) is in effect from 1 March, but Transport hasn't uploaded it to its website yet. It includes a 50% local content mandate.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... anel-place

https://www.busnews.com.au/nsw-official ... s-panel-4/

[Linto63]

Constance didn't come up with that decision off his own head, he doesn't know that much about those sort of details. It's something that was fed to him by Transport who convinced him and he was of course their mouthpiece.

So what you are suggesting is that ministers just blindly goes along with everything that a department proposes? Ministers push back on departmental suggestions all the time. While no minster is expected to be expert on every detail of their portfolio, he would (or should) of avaiailed himself of the basic facts and been aware of the pros and cons before announcing a change in policy direction.

Nowra Coaches had to bust through the rules to get those five artics, I suspect with some political help, and they are listed by Transport as a bespoke purchase (i.e. outside the Panel).

So they were able to gain an exemption, does happen from time to time. That's quite different from busting through the rules.

Rigid battery-electric urban buses in Australia can run all day on an overnight charge but at the cost of passenger capacity.

Again that is an accepted downside of EVs. Presumably artic EVs will have a similar range.

In a city the size of Sydney and with its relentless population growth, fewer and fewer buses are going to be running along truck routes mostly empty during the day as time goes on.

Most trunk route already operate with healthy loads and hence many services operate with artics. But plenty of Sydney bus mileage is accrued off trunk routes where patronage is often low.

[Swift]

If the sight of overhead is the main deterrent to proven trolley buses, could they not use in ground power like George St uses for trams?
Hybrid buses that use that to charge along the way?

[tonyp]

If the sight of overhead is the main deterrent to proven trolley buses, could they not use in ground power like George St uses for trams?
Hybrid buses that use that to charge along the way?

It's been tried but not cost-effective or reliable.

[In Transit]

There's no doubt that Sydney needs more artics. For starters, what could be more useful during a prolonged driver shortage than high capacity buses which enable more passengers be carried per driver? Longer term, patronage (and population growth), ongoing densification, a simpler more logical bus network with more frequent and high patronage routes... all these things point to more high capacity buses being needed. In most cases, the best solution will be artics (sometimes its double deckers, but only in certain circumstances).

Generally, where artics are becoming less common is not due to a lack of need, but due to a lack of artics requiring them to be spread far and wide. As some have said, the existing fleet isn't getting any younger - much like the fleet as a whole, which is a direct consequence of Constance and his post bushfires electric bus zeal. That will be corrected in time, but there's many very good reasons why so few jurisdictions made snap overnight decisions to cease buying diesels and move straight to electrics. That's all history now though, even if the consequences remain.

It's simply not correct to say that routes like the 304, 343, 390X, 500X etc which were introduced in recent years with high artic use are seeing less planned use of artics. In general, they have the same or greater scheduling of artics, however a limited fleet which is thinly spread means that rigid substitutions do occur for various reasons, none of which is a desire to use artics less. Scheduled use of the artic fleet has actually been increasing, not decreasing. There's also increased use of artics on special event and rail replacement services - but again this is heavily constrained by not having enough of them.

Arguing about Constance's historical media regurgitations on artics is irrelevant - it's a snapshot of the prevailing view in some influential corners at a point in time, which didn't make sense then and time, opinions (and people) have moved on.

In the page or two above, tonyp is basically on the money in every post. Some other posts - particularly those which give a distinct impression of being a reflex contradictory response, time after time.. are somewhat off course.

[tonyp]

I live to be contradicted.

Queensland government has recently made a very large purchase of diesels, doubtless recognising the reality of the time scale for building up an electric fleet. I suspect Constance's action has locked the new state government here into a bind. Ideologically, they'd be reluctant to buy diesel buses for metropolitan operations, with the previous Coalition government having shut down diesel purchases. It wouldn't be a good look for them politically. We may be going through some lean years for a while. The best thing the present government can do is try to speed up the rollout of electric bus infrastructure so that new electric buses can actually be brought into service.

[Merc1107]

Queensland government has recently made a very large purchase of diesels, doubtless recognising the reality of the time scale for building up an electric fleet.

Although in the grand scheme of things, the order is a bit like a 10mins to midnight rushjob - perhaps they realise the "no diesels from 2025" thing is just too aspirational? I also note North QLD have ethanol buses on trial ... Not really zero emissions either (or even zero impact, given sugar cane farming is overwhelmingly on the coastal plain, requires huge amounts of fertiliser, which will naturally run off into marine ecosystems)!

[Stu]

In fact, there are hardly enough. The disdain of artics held by a certain operator and a certain former minister are very misguided. That operator has been directed to use them on weekends an increase their utilisation rate on weekdays but appears to have refused to do both to some extent.

On the other hand, other operators are desperately short of artics. At least three operators have attempted to source additional artics and had those requests denied. A further two were successful in managing to gain additional artics off the anti-artic operator, but again I gather the operators who were the beneficiaries would have liked even more artics.

In Region 9, the region with the most artics (91 at current count, out of 232 in service in Sydney), there is a desperate need for more artics and newer artics. Buses that are between 13 and 18 years old, in many cases running 24 hours a day, are getting very tired and could probably use some TLC. Shifts rostered for artics out of Randwick and Port Botany often get substituted for a rigid due to a lack of available artics, and this often leads to overcrowding.

There really needs to be a plan to get electric artics on the road in NSW. We need some now for growth (Port Botany, Willoughby and even Menai at U-Go could probably use some now) and we need a plan for a replacement order of at least 80 in 5 years to replace the Euro 3 B12s. 80 Euro 3 B12s replaced 30 O305Gs, at this point we could probably make use of 130 electric artics to replace the 80 Euro 3s.

Numerous artics have been transferred out of Region 6 in recent years to Regions 3, 8 & 9 respectively. Regarding R8 & R9, the transfers were related to respective contract region network changes.

I think that artics in Region 6 are not used on weekends because the passenger loading is not as high as particular services on on other regions. Example: region 9 route 333. The lack of artics on weekends has existed since 2019.

Almost half of route 438X is supported by other bus services between Central Station and Leichhardt on Parramatta Rd. Route 504 is supported by other bus services between Town Hall and Drummoyne on Victoria Rd. These routes have artics rostered during weekdays which is justified by high patronage.

[Swift]

I wonder if we'll see electric replacements for the VSTMs that seat about 18, only for them to be placed on trunk routes in the peak? Never say never for such a clownshow to happen.

[tonyp]

I wonder if we'll see electric replacements for the VSTMs that seat about 18, only for them to be placed on trunk routes in the peak? Never say never for such a clownshow to happen.

Our 12 metre electric buses are, on the east coast at least, restricted to carrying about 10 less people than the 10 metre buses of the old DGT. The whole idea of growing standard buses to 12 metres was to fit more people on board (80-90). The distinction between standard and midi buses seems to have gone out the window. We've got ourselves into a bit of a mess.

[Linto63]

Largely for the better, the world and passengers expectations has moved on since the days of the DGT. They didn't have health and safety regimes, enforceable maximum axle weights etc to deal with.

We are all aware that an EV will have a lower passenger capacity than its diesel equivalent because the combined weight of the generator and batteries on the former are more than the engine and filled fuel tank on the latter. In the UK, where gross vehicle masses are displayed on all buses, EV versions are 1 to 1.5 tonnes heavier than equivalent diesel versions.

[Merc1107]

In Region 9, the region with the most artics (91 at current count, out of 232 in service in Sydney), there is a desperate need for more artics and newer artics. Buses that are between 13 and 18 years old, in many cases running 24 hours a day, are getting very tired and could probably use some TLC. Shifts rostered for artics out of Randwick and Port Botany often get substituted for a rigid due to a lack of available artics, and this often leads to overcrowding.

Perth at least bothers to put buses through a refurbishment process around their midlife - and even though it is purely a cosmetic effort, it makes a big difference when a large number of buses with fading, flaking or otherwise discoloured paint, grubby or worn interior fittings and worn out, faded seat moquettes return in much nicer condition than they left some weeks prior. In the past, some operators did seem to be finishing off that effort with some generous TLC in the mechanical department before returning the bus to traffic; the end result at one particular depot was truly remarkable in what it accomplished. Sydney is a much bigger place, so the cost of this undertaking would be even more substantial, and would compete with other more pressing issues, although with the dismal reports I've heard of fleet presentation in Sydney, it sounds like this would be a useful step in improving the passenger's perception of the service.

As far as overall mechanical condition is concerned, generally speaking, there's a lot of blame that can be spread between many different parties at the depot level, sometimes even at the Government level depending on the standards they set and enforce. Under-reporting of faults is certainly rife, and what does that lead to? More buses coming home behind a tow truck, (potentially) higher cost of repair, and less availability of buses.

[tonyp]

I always found the presentation of the Perth fleet striking. For a passenger, almost impossible to tell whether you're in a new bus or an old one. The uniform choice of a bodybuilder who knows how to design buses (leaving aside rattles!) and an agency with good minimum standards also enhances the quality of the fleet. Some other agencies should take note.

[Swift]

It doesn't help when you've got drivers that really shouldn't be employed, driving the equipment hard.
We need to bring the system in the UK where driving input is all monitored.

[Merc1107]

It doesn't help when you've got drivers that really shouldn't be employed, driving the equipment hard. We need to bring the system in the UK where driving input is all monitored.

Telematics and other aids like MobileEye can be found on buses in most of the public operations. They rolled it out in Perth years ago ... did it make a difference to the prolific, and completely unnecessary (lazy) driving habits like pulsing on the brakes and accelerator, or mounting curbs? Not one bit. Did help with speeding though.

[Swift]

They should be driving trucks if they want to abuse equipment.
Back to topic, do electronic buses typically have cruise control? Do any have adaptive cruise?

[Merc1107]

Suspect that would only be found on coaches or buses that do long-distance work. I've certainly never encountered a route service bus equipped with such equipment (or if it is, it's deactivated).

[tonyp]

Some trams are fitted with cruise control. It helps with retarding as much as moving along.

[lunchbox]

I was surprised to find that my new Rosa does not have C.C. No doubt it's an option.....