New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
In Transit
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:04 am Of the 10 or so 390Xs I passed yesterday afternoon in the Bondi Junction - Randwick section, eight were rigids. Some were short workings to Little Bay, but a long way short of being all artic which was seemingly the case earlier in the week.
While most 390X's are scheduled for artics, there aren't enough of them for it to be completely artic operated. The same goes for the 304 and 343 (and was seen earlier on new routes like the 100 and 500X), despite most trips on those routes being scheduled for artics during weekday peaks. Vehicle unavailability and lack of operator focus also sometimes leads to substitution of scheduled artics with rigids, on occasion for more trips than probably necessary.

Only the 333 is exclusively scheduled for artics (with the occasional rigid substitute when one isn't available). In the eastern suburbs the 390X now comes second in terms of artic utilisation, with artics scheduled to operate 7 days a week throughout the day.

Sydney has too few artics, and is having to make do with what it was lucky enough to get a decade and more ago.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

In Transit wrote: Sydney has too few artics, and is having to make do with what it was lucky enough to get a decade and more ago.
Even after swapping some out to region 9, Transit Systems remaining examples' are largely confined to peak hour services.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

High capacity buses are most needed in regions or major corridors where there are no rail or tram lines to do heavy lifting. Inner west/SW does not suffer a lack of high-capacity transport. The Ryde corridor, northern beaches/Mosman and much of the eastern suburbs do. It's a question of how long it will take TfNSW to recognise that acquiring more artics is the only alternative to building railways and tram lines - supplemented maybe by double deckers on long-distance express routes. Additional impetus is provided by the ongoing downward slide in regulated capacity of rigid 12 metre buses, apparently due to axle load (though puzzlingly not consistently across Australian states). These, our backbone basic bus, once had a capacity of 70-80 passengers (still short of the common 90-100 in Europe) and they've been whittled down progressively to around 60 now for an electric bus. This is now a profound problem that few seem to recognise. It also has implications for productivity and economics.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Merc1107 »

In Transit wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:30 am Vehicle unavailability and lack of operator focus also sometimes leads to substitution of scheduled artics with rigids, on occasion for more trips than probably necessary.
Is there also a potential issue at play with how the contractors are drawing up the shifts, resulting in the trips requiring articulated buses being mixed up among other trips not needing them, or even on the wrong type of shifts?

I'm far from a full bottle on the art of scheduling, but from personal experience (i.e. Perth), it often feels like there is blind acceptance of what the computers spit out. The result being oddities like a late nightshift yielding an artic because the first trip was a school run, or artics bumbling around on runs that could never hope to fill a Toyota Coaster, whilst rigids make the arduous journey into the city from the same area to pick up a busy evening peak trip.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:54 am
In Transit wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:30 am Vehicle unavailability and lack of operator focus also sometimes leads to substitution of scheduled artics with rigids, on occasion for more trips than probably necessary.
Is there also a potential issue at play with how the contractors are drawing up the shifts, resulting in the trips requiring articulated buses being mixed up among other trips not needing them, or even on the wrong type of shifts?

I'm far from a full bottle on the art of scheduling, but from personal experience (i.e. Perth), it often feels like there is blind acceptance of what the computers spit out. The result being oddities like a late nightshift yielding an artic because the first trip was a school run, or artics bumbling around on runs that could never hope to fill a Toyota Coaster, whilst rigids make the arduous journey into the city from the same area to pick up a busy evening peak trip.
For quite a few years, Perth operators were pretty poor in scheduling artics - some operators being better than others. In some cases, as you say, shifts were built first and then artics placed on those shifts which had a trip which perhaps required them, regardless of the rest of that shift's work. Contrast this with the days of Perth Bus for example, where artic blocks (after a poor period of random allocations) were manually constructed to ensure their optimal utilisation. This situation is slowly improving with the PTA having belatedly understood the importance of specifying some artic trips to operators as a contractual obligation, although there is still some way to go to optimise this.

The Region 9 changes just introduced in Sydney, however, have been very specific and targeted in the scheduling of artics. For efficient scheduling, you can still see them pop up where they aren't necessarily needed, however this isn't at the expense of where they are required.

However, this still relies on the operator in delivering this effectively - for example placing importance on not just scheduling and then allocating the correct bus type, but also in managing any unavailability on the day - such as trying to minimise sending out rigids on a lengthy 12+ hour block scheduled for an artic, or by changing the rigid off with an artic later in the day when one is available. This used to be particularly frustrating when seeing non accessible buses running all day wheelchair bus blocks - its understandable that sometimes at the height of the peak you can get caught short of the right buses, however not that you do nothing to rectify it later in the day. Try explaining to an elderly passenger, or a parent with a pram, or someone in a wheelchair that you ran out of accessible buses at a time of day when you have half a depot full of them...

Of course, this isn't only STA's (or any other operator's) responsibility. TfNSW as the agency in charge is where the leadership needs to come from on these matters - setting expectations and then ensuring they are followed. Given it took Perth's PTA over 20 years of contracting to recognise this (when they are generally the leader in effective bus contract management), some other states and territories might have a while to go.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Better than zilch and having way too many VSTMs as on the 400/410.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 10:04 am Of the 10 or so 390Xs I passed yesterday afternoon in the Bondi Junction - Randwick section, eight were rigids. Some were short workings to Little Bay, but a long way short of being all artic which was seemingly the case earlier in the week.
It does seem to depend on the time of day.

Oddly, during peak hours I actually see almost zero artics on 390X, but outside of that during the day it’s almost completely operated with them. Late night and early mornings it’s only rigids
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by hornetfig »

moa999 wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:24 pmThe 373, 377 don't stop in the Moore Park precinct at all - the closest stops are the far side of Lang Rd and a couple of blocks away towards Taylor Square.
It's especially dumb when 396 still has its stops inbound at Sydney Girls High School and outbound at Gregory Ave, but the bus roadway's stops at Gregory Ave (373, 339) are apparently never to be reinstated.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

Appears all 373 and 374s are all artic operated today, as they were last Sunday. Presumably to cater for beach crowds should summer ever get started. The buses used are those that operate the 304 and 343 during the week as rigids are operating all of these today.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

Last night there were artics operating on both of the 373 and 390Xs that went past me at Randwick Junction at 1:30am.

The way the shifts have been drawn see most vehicle shifts only operating one route, so there shouldn't be really any cases of artics ending up on runs that dont need them.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Merc1107 »

J_Busworth wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 11:11 pm The way the shifts have been drawn see most vehicle shifts only operating one route, so there shouldn't be really any cases of artics ending up on runs that dont need them.
Do drivers over there baulk at these sorts of shifts on the basis of fatigue?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by J_Busworth »

Earlier someone had asked for photos of the new network. I was able to go out yesterday and get some proper shots of some of the new routes in operation.

Volvo B10BLE Orana 3914 on a 350 to Bondi Junction at Maroubra Beach
56721332-6FBD-4843-9CA3-B2C7C1D1CFEF-min.jpeg
56721332-6FBD-4843-9CA3-B2C7C1D1CFEF-min.jpeg (96.09 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
Scania L113CRL Orana 3728 at Clovelly ahead of a 339X to Museum Station
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7E207BF1-69DF-46D1-A0FA-F8753A8012AA-min.jpeg (121.37 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
Scania L113CRL Orana 3722 battling the rain through Moore Park on a 373X to Coogee
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IMG_7470-min.JPG (81.41 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
Mercedes O500LE CB60 EvoII 2031 on a 375 to Randwick at Maroubra Beach
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IMG_7672-min.JPG (72.3 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
Volvo B12BLEA Euro 3 CB60 1694 on a 390X to Bondi Junction on Bronte Road
IMG_7262-min.JPG
IMG_7262-min.JPG (114.76 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Fleet Lists »

Fleet Lists wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:28 pm
Stu wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:49 pm Region 6 is meant only have four artics remaining, the original metrobus trial units 2109 & 2110 (VOLVO B12BLEA), 2111 (Scania K310UA) and 2112 (Scania N310UA).
On Weekdays except Tuesday ever since Transit Systems has taken over region 6, there has been an artic working route 751S in the afternoon from Sylvania High School to Kogarah which is worked in the morning by Transdev as route S256. I guess that wont happen after this. I could not check this afternoon because of the strike.

I have only managed to get a usuable photo of it https://www.flickr.com/photos/193972346 ... 686200239/ a couple of weeks ago.
One of the 2 remaining Mercedes O500LE/Volgren CR228L's with Transit Systems region 6 2095 ST, was still operating on school route 751S today https://www.flickr.com/photos/193972346 ... 742273342/
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Wandering through Kingsford today I noticed that at least one bus stop is still showing the old routes and timetables in the main display panels. Found a couple of elderly people waiting for the 391 to get to LaPerouse. The signage in the LR interchange was not fixed until the 8th, and that was only after I reported it.

And there are lots of signs stating that "route XYZ no longer stops at this stop" without actually telling passengers where it does stop, or where to go to catch that service.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:45 pm Wandering through Kingsford today I noticed that at least one bus stop is still showing the old routes and timetables in the main display panels. Found a couple of elderly people waiting for the 391 to get to LaPerouse. The signage in the LR interchange was not fixed until the 8th, and that was only after I reported it.

And there are lots of signs stating that "route XYZ no longer stops at this stop" without actually telling passengers where it does stop, or where to go to catch that service.
Seems to be the way it's gotten under a decade of LNP rule. There may be light at the end of the tunnel. We now have an opposition leader who's half worth considering. A shame the rest of the team seem preoccupied with greens based issues like identity politics.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Noel »

The signage is very sub-par wherever you are.

At Circular Quay today I noted there is no indication that the 333 or 396 operate overnight (or on Friday-Saturday nights for the 396). Plus the frequency guide is way out of whack - the 333 operates more frequently than the 10 and 20 minute frequency it lists.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Not CSELR related, but I noticed a bus stop in Glebe Point Rd still with its "Pre-Pay Only 7 am to 7pm" sign still intact. Good to see operators keeping information up to date
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:16 pm Not CSELR related, but I noticed a bus stop in Glebe Point Rd still with its "Pre-Pay Only 7 am to 7pm" sign still intact. Good to see operators keeping information up to date
According to this link, bus services are "currently cashless only" although I doubt they'll ever go back to accepting cash after so long.

https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... le-tickets
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:23 pm
boronia wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:16 pm Not CSELR related, but I noticed a bus stop in Glebe Point Rd still with its "Pre-Pay Only 7 am to 7pm" sign still intact. Good to see operators keeping information up to date
According to this link, bus services are "currently cashless only" although I doubt they'll ever go back to accepting cash after so long.

https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... le-tickets
That will eliminate a long standing issue with bus services. Time wasters fumbling with cash and presenting large notes thinking the bus is a bank!

Now we have a new problem of criminal bludgers simply getting on without tapping at all.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by In Transit »

Glen wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:23 pm
boronia wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:16 pm Not CSELR related, but I noticed a bus stop in Glebe Point Rd still with its "Pre-Pay Only 7 am to 7pm" sign still intact. Good to see operators keeping information up to date
According to this link, bus services are "currently cashless only" although I doubt they'll ever go back to accepting cash after so long.

https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... le-tickets
Cash is dead. Don't try reading too much into the actual wording of TfNSW information - it is rarely updated and wording is often sloppy in the first place.. or inaccurate.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Merc1107 »

Swift wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 10:25 pm
Glen wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:23 pm
According to this link, bus services are "currently cashless only" although I doubt they'll ever go back to accepting cash after so long.

https://transportnsw.info/tickets-opal/ ... le-tickets
Now we have a new problem of criminal bludgers simply getting on without tapping at all.
They still do the pat-down, tap a bad (low balance, cancelled or broken) card a gazillion times or just flat out claim to have lost it. All time-wasting exercises. The same will happen with debit card payment options, too.

With cash there was at least the possibility of accepting/extracting even a partial fare and issuing a make-up ticket for that as people often have some insignificant amount of change somewhere on them (or have correct fare "ready" but are just rorting the system).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:20 pm
With cash there was at least the possibility of accepting/extracting even a partial fare and issuing a make-up ticket for that as people often have some insignificant amount of change somewhere on them (or have correct fare "ready" but are just rorting the system).
You won't get far with me. I have $2 for the supermarket trolley which I won't give up and a few dollars for the cardless Polish delicatessan in Wollongong which I also won''t give up.

However, I do have a Smartrider, which everybody there should have. :D
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Transport Buff »

Just uploaded a brand new video to my YouTube channel 'Moore Park Bus + Light Rail Action' with the aim to document buses under the new Region 9 network, that run alongside the light rail. It is filmed during peak-hour to fully illustrate the scope of buses and routes in the area.

Go check it out here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKFf1z2_VF8

Hope this is of interest to fellow viewers and readers, especially those keeping an eye on Sydney's Eastern Suburbs buses. :)

Also, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all viewers and subscrbers! Here's to a brighter, happier, safer 2022 and beyond! :)

Cheers to all!!
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Did the 339 get a frequency bump since the Dec 5 changes that’s not mentioned? Across the entire week during the daytime and evening up to 9pm it now pleasingly runs every 20 minutes, then every 30 mins until end of service - pretty sure before Dec 5 it was always a 30 min frequency irrespective of time?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Mr OC Benz »

Yes both the 339 and 374 were upgraded to every 20 mins (previously every 30 mins) until around 9pm, and then every 30 mins in the evening (previously every 45 mins). Pretty sure they were both advertised as part of the 5 Dec changes.
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