New Sydney and Outer Metro bus contracts (as from 2020)

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boronia
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

lunchbox wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:48 pm REGION 9 – A PASSENGER'S VIEW.
There are some things in the changes that don't make sense, but in theory the changes would have been based on the most popular travel patterns determined from Opal data. Although some people may have been disadvantaged, wonder how many now have better services to get from their As to Bs. There are around 3 million bus trips a month in the region and they cannot satisfy the exact needs of every single passenger.

Can't catch a bus from Burwood to Bondi Junction any more? Really, how many people did? Obviously, the regions split had something to do with it, but a long trip like that goes through several choke points which can play havoc with service reliability at the ends.

Under the old network, there were 5 bus routes along Anzac Parade into Circular Quay. Most of the time they individually carried few passengers; now there is just one route and it still copes quite well. There was similar overlapping on other corridors which has been addressed.

Public consultation? Always a thorny issue, They ask 500 people for an opinion; they get 500 different answers; they pick one and the other 499 complain "they didn't listen to us".
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Glen
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:59 pm Exactly as Nick Greiner wanted it 30 years back. Thanks to that disgrace of a Labor regime, Nick's demented vision is being realised and enabled.
Our two party system, just as in the U.S.A, is our undoing as our persists in the 21st century.
Money being the prime consideration to unprecedented levels.
I want 1975 -1985 back as a groundhog decade.
What did Nick Greiner want?

What were the highlights of the decade you mention?
moa999
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by moa999 »

tonyp wrote:Isn't TfNSW responsible for these changes? Nothing to do with operational privatisation.
Absolutely.

Changes go back to the EIS for the Light rail which is probably five years old, and since then multiple consultations and changes.

We've got a brand new $3bn tramway that obviously changes the game and removes a lot of bus journeys.
If the environment around you changes you have to react. Much like the bus routes changes when the ESR or Metro opened.

The rest are mostly individual complaints. For every person that the changes don't suit, there will be others that it works better for.. and obviously TfNSW has a wealth of very accurate Opal data these days..

On a couple of individual points - we've gone from city terminators, to through routes, to loops - all in attempts to improve efficiency and on time running.
The only consistent with the 400 in my experience is it was never on time.

Agree the separation of East and West at Central is a pain, but I suspect it's something to do with closure of the Central Layover as part of the new Tech precinct redevelopment, and the public spaces in that area are going to look very different and likely be a construction mess over the next few years.

Linto63
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

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The region 9 routes changes had nothing to do with privatisation. There was always going to be a restructure of the routes once the light rail opened irrespective of whether the region was privatised or not. The changes in services in region 9 were foreshadowed in the EIS back in 2013 long before privatisation of State Transit was on the agenda. Some of what was planned at that stage differed from what was proposed in 2020 and then tweaked and implemented in 2021, but broadly speaking most cuts were foreshadowed.

The busiest section of the 400 was between Bondi Junction and Westfield Eastgardens hence why only every other service continuing beyond the latter. Relatively few passengers continued to the domestic terminal, and fewer still to the international terminal. With any recasting of a network, there are winners and losers, but the suggestion that it was just a cutback exercise is incorrect, plenty of routes had their service levels increased.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:01 pm
Swift wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:59 pm Exactly as Nick Greiner wanted it 30 years back. Thanks to that disgrace of a Labor regime, Nick's demented vision is being realised and enabled.
Our two party system, just as in the U.S.A, is our undoing as our persists in the 21st century.
Money being the prime consideration to unprecedented levels.
I want 1975 -1985 back as a groundhog decade.
What did Nick Greiner want?

What were the highlights of the decade you mention?
#1 No more government transport. Shut down country lines. Be a dictator.
#2 absolutely everything.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Linto63
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

Post by Linto63 »

Swift wrote: No more government transport. Shut down country lines. Be a dictator.
None of which happened, apart from the closure of a few railway lines, although far less than in previous decades.
Nat
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

Post by Nat »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:57 am
Swift wrote: No more government transport. Shut down country lines. Be a dictator.
None of which happened, apart from the closure of a few railway lines, although far less than in previous decades.
Which, thanks only to public pressure (I.e. losing votes and seats), that evil neo con fantasy didn't happen.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

Some of Nicholas The Terrible policies did get carried out. Halting the Dombarton -Maldon goods line which cost more than completion. Had to have been for vested interests.
Assets disposal programmes knowing damned well the public doesn't want it but imposed it anyway like the big headed tyrant he'll always be. Turning the Randwick workshops into a nursing home for the rich.
Attempting to sell off Tempe depot.

Now the current retards in government are determined to carry on that man's insidious legacy and succeeding.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Fleet Lists »

I dont agree with the last paragraph. The current policy goes nowhere near as far as the Greiner policy did.
Living in the Shire.
Stu
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Stu »

What was the rationale for splitting the PM peak hour services to E and SE suburbs between Elizabeth St and Castlereagh Streets? All departing PM express services now operate on Castlereagh St - not Elizabeth St - and the remaining E and SE all-stops services are located in Elizabeth St.
Over the decades the number of bus routes and overall bus services travelling directly into and out of the Sydney CBD had grown so much that the Sydney CBD was constantly in a state of mass traffic congestion, services would sometimes operate inbound and outbound on the same street whilst other services would operate inbound along a particular street and outbound on a different street.

TfNSW wanted Elizabeth St to become the main bus corridor in the Sydney CBD, The massive reduction of Region 9 bus services travelling to and from the Sydney CBD has allowed for more room on Elizabeth St to cater for the Region 6 buses heading outbound. It would not be feasible to have the Region 9 outbound PM peak express buses to operate via Elizabeth St and use Martin Pl as a major bus stop or terminus because the Martin Pl bus stop is already so full with Region 6 buses. Even the handful of Region 9 routes (304, 333, 343 & 396) that continue to operate via Elizabeth St are all day high frequency services and often use articulated buses.

The Region 9 outbound PM peak express buses operating via Castlereagh St have a minimal impact on the traffic in the Sydney CBD.

Why have “loop” routes been introduced? What are the implications for passenger information systems with these suburban style loop routes? What are the implications for service quality and on-time running with loop routes compared to the previous operating patterns.
The new flavour that TfNSW seem to be enjoying is 'loop services', long cross-regional services and through-routing services are no longer in vogue, the latter can be discussed at another time.
- Loop services are well utilised for when there is little to no room for laying over in the Sydney CBD. Examples: routes 308, 441 & 442 (Region 6), route 120 (Region 7) and route 100 (Region 8) and more recently route 373 (Region 9).
- Because there is no lay over area/time, service frequency can be increased without having congestion at a terminus.
- Efficient scheduling, increase frequency of timetabled services whilst reducing the amount of buses and drivers required to fulfill the timetable.
- One negative point relates to fact of having no layover and recovery time at the midpoint for the trip (potential terminus), if the service is late heading inbound towards the midpoint of the route, then the trip will be late heading outbound from the midpoint back the terminus or origin.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by tonyp »

I recall that the splitting of outward PM services from the CBD across two streets was something that started when buses replaced the trams because, even with conductors, the buses were so slow in loading that their dwell times at stops became such that buses were piling up waiting for each other. With the change to front door only loading, the problem became more acute and has remained thus ever since.

Relief along the CBD spine was one of the major reasons for the reintroduction of trams with the CSELR project. The bus operation could have done more to rescue itself from the predicament (by looking to Europe for the solutions), but entrenched thinking and union resistance has kept it hogtied. It's interesting to see other Australian operations now increasingly going the European way while NSW, with the biggest operations and biggest problems remains stuck in a rut.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Most region 15 routes have been Campbelltown to Campbelltown loops since after the Busways December 2002 Macarthur area network review witch happend about 2 and a half years before the Unsworth bus network review recommended contracts became a thing so the loop service was around long before Transport For NSW was created
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Stu »

^ Loop services have been popular in areas away from the Sydney CBD and other inner Sydney areas, Region 12 is a great example. TfNSW are now applying the loop service to other areas that are more congested.

The route 358 is unique as there is such a long stretch of inbound and outbound parallel operating with only a small actual/physical loop around Randwick. I would imagine that Randwick Council put up a fight to allow for a bus terminus in Randwick to cater for the route 358.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by moa999 »

I'd add the 311 to those effectively converted to loops.
Used to layover at Lee St after finishing at Railway Square. Now does a loop of Belmore Park.

Same didn't happen with the 310 which is now the only bus using Central Stand A.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by hugh45 »

The Route 476 Rockdale/Dolls Point/Rockdale loop at the Rockdale Plaza bus stop shows most buses on the timetable going to Rockdale. Half of them will be going the two stops to Rockdale Station, the other half will be going to Dolls Point before returning to Rockdale. It would be much better if the bus stop at Rockdale Plaza showed them going to Dolls Point so passengers travelling in that direction would know which bus to catch.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by boronia »

At Chatswood Station, the e-paper "next bus" signs show the 120 going to "Chatswood"; really informative.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Glen »

I think that is a Hastus issue.
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rogf24
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by rogf24 »

More like a loop service issue.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Glen »

I meant it's how Hastus treats a loop because it shows where the bus is ultimately going.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

Post by Linto63 »

Same thing happens at Coogee with the 373, obviously the the out and back trips are being classified as one.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:42 pm Same thing happens at Coogee with the 373, obviously the the out and back trips are being classified as one.
A loop is a single trip the drivers know what part of the loop is the outbound portion and where on the service they have to be before a change to the desto to signal the inbound portion of the loop
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boronia
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services

Post by boronia »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:05 pm
Linto63 wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:42 pm Same thing happens at Coogee with the 373, obviously the the out and back trips are being classified as one.
A loop is a single trip the drivers know what part of the loop is the outbound portion and where on the service they have to be before a change to the desto to signal the inbound portion of the loop
We are not talking about desto signs on buses, but the information at terminus stops.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Swift »

This is becoming an insane asylum. I long for the old L7 days under Wran.
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote: Fri Mar 25, 2022 11:31 pm This is becoming an insane asylum. I long for the old L7 days under Wran.
Things started to change when the DMT started dismantling the 1 number multiple destination numbering system that was being used by the family owned private operators since route numbers where introduced in late 1925
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Re: New bus contracts to drive improved services (as from 2020)

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Totally irrelevant.
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