Inner West Light Rail observations

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Randomness
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Randomness »

NSW Transport Minister Rob Stokes says the state government expects the Spanish manufacturer of Sydney’s cracked inner west trams to pay for their rectification.
Just another day of “wasn’t my fault, I had nothing to do with this, more votes please.”
mubd
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by mubd »

tonyp wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:53 am
Transtopic wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:10 am As a casual observer on this thread, I'd be interested to know why the fixed bogie design was selected over the swivelling bogie, and what advantage is there for one or the other? Is it just cost of maintenance? Can you help me out Tony?

Just as an aside, it doesn't auger well for the CAF new regional train fleet.

Why fixed bogie trams after the technology was superseded by the superior swivelling bogie tram more than a century ago? (As if like still building railway wagons with four wheel trucks instead of bogies.) Because modern manufacturers trying to get a foothold in the lucrative new light rail market found it was cheaper to manufacture and also enabled one less bogie per 30 metres, which also saved manufacturing cost (but increases axle load and stress, which of course becomes the operator's problem, not the manufacturer's).
It was my understanding that it's not because swivelling bogies are more expensive by default. It's when you need to cram it underneath a low floor that it becomes expensive.

From what I understand, almost all heavy rail carriages are of a swivelling bogie design. Swivelling bogies are CHEAPER than fixed bogies by default. That's why all trams until the late 20th century used them.

Now, here's the rub. Low-floor trams CANNOT use conventional bogies which are box-shaped with the floor sitting above the entirety of the box - that would introduce either an unacceptable lump in the floor or would raise the floor height to conventional tram level.

Cramming all the drive and suspension components into the absolutely tiny space underneath a low-floor tram is very expensive.

But yes, I agree - they should have paid up because the benefits of pivoting bogies outweigh the costs. I think the reason for this debacle comes down to three things - a shitty manufacturer, XXX procurement of a shitty design, and shitty track maintenance.
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

The additional cost of a swivelling bogie is largely in the secondary suspension that has to be added because the bogie is not attached to the car body, plus the fact that an additional bogie is required because a tram with swivelling bogies cannot have a suspended module. The reason for the adoption of the swivelling bogie on trams was not upfront cost, but to improve the riding quality and dynamic behaviour of the car and ease the stresses on components and track during cornering, thus reducing long-term maintenance cost - much the same reason as for trains.

Here is an image of all the drive components of a typical five-module, fixed bogie, low-floor tram with the middle bogie unpowered (like our trams in Sydney):

Image

As you can see, it's quite a mechanically simple set-up at rail level, with six wheelsets and motors and gearboxes slung on the outside of the power bogies. However, those wheelsets at the ends undergo a lot of stress when the tram hits a curve, particularly accentuated when there's a long nose overhang, which acts as a lever as the nose sways laterally, pendulum-like, while cornering. The Sydney Citadis are particularly vulnerable to that. Because the bogie is fixed to the body, that stress is naturally transmitted to the body, so the potential for cracks and failure is high. The Siemens Combino disaster in the 2000s is an example of the consequences of such failure, but there are other instances of such events in fixed bogie trams, including the Variotram in other jurisdictions.

The following piece summarises the comparative issues between swivelling and fixed bogies, with illustrations of examples of the two types:

http://www.railway2007.fd.cvut.cz/proce ... +Kolar.pdf

A tram with all swivelling bogies will typically look like this, a platform that you would recognise in the Melbourne E class:

Image
Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Appears the problem with the Urbos is not contained to Sydney, with Birmingham again having had to suspend services after more cracks were discovered, this time for at least a month.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

It can be pointed out that Hong Kong solved the DDA problem by having high floor bogie trams with matching higher level platforms. Also that the first batch of those trams was designed and built in Australia.
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I’ve caught the IWLR replacement bus service twice to test the waters (both towards Central), and unfortunately my impressions are mainly negative.

Both times were outside of weekday peak hour because I know that would be an unmitigated disaster with traffic, but anyways, let’s give this thing a chance or two.

First trip was at night, from Glebe to Central. Frequency was decent I didn’t have to wait too long for the bus to show up at the dedicated stop which is some distance from Jubilee Park LR. Man, this thing went slow. Not just even on the twisty sections, but even where the driver had plenty of straight road ahead such as between Glebe and Fish Market, the bus just crawled. Patronage was dead only a few other people who had gotten off by the Star, where in turn partygoers filled the bus pretty well. Next section was a bit better. Eventually got off at Central Pitt St. Journey time? 33 minutes Glebe to Central at a very quiet time of night. Not good. I weep to think what it would be like during the day with actual traffic out and about.

Then a second time why not I’ll give it a try again, I board at the Star with a few other people. Opal readers closed. Bus completely full standing room only, of course just to annoy pax further at busy times the front row of seats are STILL roped off to the public, curiously this time the bus had stops both at Convention and Exhibition Centre - I thought it was only one or the other. Here’s the bad bit - unfortunately after Paddy’s Market stop, no one bothered to press the stop button, so the bus didn’t bother stopping at Central Pitt St inbound - the consequence? Bus did a full loop around Campbell St and Castlereagh St. Including weekend traffic and traffic lights. All the way back into Hay St and then left up the ramp towards Grand Concourse which was an immense time sink.

This thing is too slow and my preference by far would’ve been to just have a partial service with either Citadis or Variotram (yes I know neither are possible at this moment but just saying.) There are far too many traffic lights on the route. The frequency is ok. If you live Lilyfield or Glebe, and want to get to the City, I reckon you would be far better off using routes 437 or 431 which will get you there quicker. I would only use the rail replacement bus service for getting to Pyrmont otherwise it takes too much time. And that inbound loop at Central, god… do not forget to press the stop button before Central Pitt St or you will pay for it dearly in time
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Saw a report on seven news on a cafe near Dulwich Hill stop losing business it depends on from commuters on the light rail. It mentioned more buses clogging streets as a result of the shutdown.
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Noel
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Noel »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:29 pm I’ve caught the IWLR replacement bus service twice to test the waters (both towards Central), and unfortunately my impressions are mainly negative.
As a driver, I couldn't agree more.

The route is too convoluted, it needs to be broken up into maybe two. The first one would be Central all stops to Lilyfield and the second one would be Central express to Lilyfield then all stops to Dulwich Hill.

The other thing that needs to be sorted is the Central end. Get it out of upstairs and start it in Pitt St or Eddy Ave (facing west).

The current arrangement won't work too tell for much longer let alone 18 months.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:08 pm It can be pointed out that Hong Kong solved the DDA problem by having high floor bogie trams with matching higher level platforms. Also that the first batch of those trams was designed and built in Australia.
I'm not familiar with Hong Kong although I've seen the Manchester system which uses railway height platforms, more so for historical reasons I believe, however I think they give the stops a very bulky look and don't integrate well with the streetscape.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Glen wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:38 pm
boronia wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:08 pm It can be pointed out that Hong Kong solved the DDA problem by having high floor bogie trams with matching higher level platforms. Also that the first batch of those trams was designed and built in Australia.
I'm not familiar with Hong Kong although I've seen the Manchester system which uses railway height platforms, more so for historical reasons I believe, however I think they give the stops a very bulky look and don't integrate well with the streetscape.
I saw a video on a UK system with these trams with oddly high up doors and was going to try and look it up to mention here and you beat me to it. It was because they converted a railway line and wanted to utilise the existing platforms. They must have been on a strict budget -now there's something Sydney can learn from, if not the high doors.
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tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:29 am
I saw a video on a UK system with these trams with oddly high up doors and was going to try and look it up to mention here and you beat me to it. It was because they converted a railway line and wanted to utilise the existing platforms. They must have been on a strict budget -now there's something Sydney can learn from, if not the high doors.
That's the Manchester system that Glen refers to. Similar in Stuttgart too. It's because they've compromised with an old legacy system with high platforms or they partly run on old railways (Manchester), so found it easier to stick with the old platform height, or were built before the low-floor era became universal (Hong Kong). Needless to say, they're orphans rather than a trend. In urban environments, the accessibility issues are bad, they're a pedestrian obstacle and blot on the townscape. Neither town planners nor public like them.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

Here's the Manchester video I saw.
https://youtu.be/gjEdPSg24yU
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moa999
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

Swift wrote:Here's the Manchester video I saw.
https://youtu.be/gjEdPSg24yU
Shot of the platforms at 4.40..

Looks like 9 or 10 steps.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Swift »

moa999 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:51 pm
Swift wrote:Here's the Manchester video I saw.
https://youtu.be/gjEdPSg24yU
Shot of the platforms at 4.40..

Looks like 9 or 10 steps.
I counted six. At least they have a tram service. A ramp wouldn't be too difficult.
In not seriously thinking Sydney should go this way, but it does make swinging bogies a much easier proposition.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by moa999 »

You might be right.
Some stops appear to have a ramp, but they aren't short given the max gradient for accessible ramps.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Pete ... _tram_stop
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by boronia »

This is (I think) the only in-street stop on the HK light rail. Photo from 1997, so I don't know if the ramp meets current DDA standards here.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

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J_Busworth wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:26 pm Most of the trips were operated by Ryde over the past two days, explaining why a Y bus would have been shown on the news. Randwick and Waverley have both been seen supplementing, but only a few trips each.

As it as been assigned officially to R9, I would expect that once R7 is gone to Busways, R9 will pick up the slack. Given the reduced bus requirement in R9 from 5 December, that would seem like a logical time for R9 to take over from Y on the 498/499.
The trip details in Anytrip show all trips as being operated State Transit Eastern Suburbs https://anytrip.com.au/region/nsw/tripI ... :1482942/0 This sample link is probably only active during the duration of the trip.
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Linto63
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Linto63 »

Still plenty of Ryde buses operating this afternoon.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by mubd »

TfNSW needs to hire a couple of these

Image
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Glen »

Swift wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:56 pm Here's the Manchester video I saw.
https://youtu.be/gjEdPSg24yU
Very much a street railway. The even have a whistle like a train.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Stu »

Transit Systems will be operating routes 498 & 499 this weekend. This will be a cheaper option for TfNSW instead of using STA.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

Is that a permanent arrangement from now on, or just for this weekend?
tonyp
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by tonyp »

https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 28b3f09c4d

I don't think news.com.au has a paywall. If it does, let me know and I'll post the content.
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

tonyp wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:08 pm https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 28b3f09c4d

I don't think news.com.au has a paywall. If it does, let me know and I'll post the content.

Interesting the article ends with
Rail replacement buses are replacing Sydney’s inner west light rail until the trams are fixed or replaced.
So there’s a possibility of new CAF trams altogether in the works now too? I reckon repair is far more likely though
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Re: Inner West Light Rail observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

I think just a bit of journalistic speculation.
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