Opal Discussion and Observations

[Swift]

So give the bad people a free pass then?
Beyond weak. Just imagine under the Greens er I mean Labor...

[boronia]

At Eastgardens this afternoon there were 3 cops standing on the footpath checking cards AFTER the pax got off.

[pgt]

At Eastgardens this afternoon there were 3 cops standing on the footpath checking cards AFTER the pax got off.

Can't say I've seen it there before, but this used to happen at Wynyard (York St) quite often at one stage, as the inspectors would meet buses coming from the northside.

Pre Opal, this would happen even more so at both Wynyard and Neutral Bay Junction, since the fare between those two stops (with only the Harbour Bridge and Warringah Freeway in between) was a 3-5 section fare, hence the inspectors checking to see who was trying to get away with using a 1-2 section fare ticket.

[Swift]

At Eastgardens this afternoon there were 3 cops standing on the footpath checking cards AFTER the pax got off.

Not surprised. I've seen many non tappers around there. Same with Busways around Woy Woy lately.

[boronia]

The surprise was that police were doing it, not RPOs.

But they did catch a couple of local ferals, who initially just tried to walk away when challenged.

[Swift]

I'm chuffed to hear police officers were dealing with them. Hopefully they caught some with outstanding warrants. If so, a very productive fare blitz.

[Passenger 57]

I notice some painted ground markings proclaiming "paid area" have appeared on a ferry wharf I visited recently. If I recall correctly these were in-line with Opal readers making them consistent with the definition of "paid area" that I'm familiar with. Unfortunately, this still leaves the top-up/ticket machine in the paid area whereas a more sensible placement would have placed it at one of the ends of the gangway connecting the pontoon instead. Either way, a lot of fishers will be quite out of pocket if ticketing is demanded. The last TOs I saw there didn't bother harassing anyone on the wharf.

I'm curious whether "paid area" markings have appeared on other modes too. In particular, railway stations where using the bridge to cross the railway tracks would I believe constitute entering the paid area due to the placement of the readers at the ends of the stairway/ramp to the bridge. Do these have "paid area" markings on the platforms themselves now?

[Stonesourscotty]

I have seen a paid area at I think Seven Hills station??

[Passenger 57]

Thanks, Stonesourscotty. I was out of my normal orbit last week and noticed some "paid area" markings at Erskineville Station. Like the ferry wharf markings I reported on earlier these were also inline with the Opal readers. In this case, the boundaries of the paid area achieves an even poorer outcome: not only is an Opal top-up/ticket machine within the paid area but also a kiosk which would attract people walking past on the street.

While in practise, abuse of the poor definition of paid areas is probably not a problem, I don't care for a system that leaves traps for the innocent that can be exploited by malfeasants. If TfNSW is going to the expense of having paid area markings painted throughout the system (to aid with prosecutions?) it is disappointing they are not taking the opportunity not to correct paid area definitions. Paint is a lot cheaper than moving Opal readers.

While 2 samples is hardly enough to draw a conclusion from I'm wondering if all the paid area marking that have been rolled out are aligned with readers. I suspect that doing anything else might require regulation changes and I couldn't find any recent changes to Opal ticketing regulation gazetted prior to my first posting on this subject.

[matthewg]

I suspect you are overthinking it. Someone in TfNSW has had the 'bright idea' of making 'paid areas' (Metro stations overseas often have lines on the ground marking the 'paid' area, especially on 'proof of payment' systems with no gate lines).
They have had ground decals made up and sent a contractor out to place them with no instruction other than 'put them near the Opal poles'.

There are LOT of stations where this will make no sense what so ever, with the top up machines and kiosks now in the 'paid' area, footbridges that are used by the locals to cross the line now in the 'paid' area, etc
There was no logic I could see with the Opal pole placement - the only requirement appeared to be to put them where the T-Card cabling wasn't. As a result adjacent stations on my line that share similar architecture (would be near identical if the original concourse building at my station hadn't burned down years ago), one has the Opal poles up on the footbridge near the ticket office, the other has the Opal poles at the bottom of the stairs to the platforms. Station with similar patronage too - with quite a different number of Opal terminals due to one station having the concentrated at the station entrance on the foot bridgege and the other having them on each platform.

[matthewg]

The Opal Connect web site has now gained a contactless payment history feature - finally showing the tap locations of contactless paid travel instead of just a list of fares charged with no indication on where the fare taps were done or if capping was applied.
I haven't had my bank account registered long enough to get the full back history promised, but yesterday afternoon's travel is now there with station names and the fare (+ capping discount) shown.

Over a year to implement functionality that was on the software they licensed from TfL in the first place. (The first time I used contactless in London, which was only several months after it became generally available to the public, I could see full my full travel history charged to contactless card account on the TfL Oyster web site)
I can only assume something had to be reimplemented from scratch to comply with local banking regulations.

[Passenger 57]

I suspect you are overthinking it.

Probably.

Someone in TfNSW has had the 'bright idea' of making 'paid areas' (Metro stations overseas often have lines on the ground marking the 'paid' area, especially on 'proof of payment' systems with no gate lines).
They have had ground decals made up and sent a contractor out to place them with no instruction other than 'put them near the Opal poles'.

Marking paid areas to make them explicit is a decent idea. They have have existed for Opal since the relevant regulations were gazetted. Placing them anywhere else but at the Opal poles would probably require a change of regulation.

There are LOT of stations where this will make no sense what so ever, with the top up machines and kiosks now in the 'paid' area, footbridges that are used by the locals to cross the line now in the 'paid' area, etc

There appears to be no change in areas, the new signage just makes the boundaries more explicit. I do wonder if there was some need that arose after all these years.

There was no logic I could see with the Opal pole placement - the only requirement appeared to be to put them where the T-Card cabling wasn't. As a result adjacent stations on my line that share similar architecture (would be near identical if the original concourse building at my station hadn't burned down years ago), one has the Opal poles up on the footbridge near the ticket office, the other has the Opal poles at the bottom of the stairs to the platforms. Station with similar patronage too - with quite a different number of Opal terminals due to one station having the concentrated at the station entrance on the foot bridgege and the other having them on each platform.

Great minds at work. I can accept that some readers were placed in less than optimal positions due to the lack of perhaps consistent oversight placed where ever it was most beneficial to the contractor. Applying ground marking though is a lot easier than installing readers so I'm disappointed that the paid areas are not being redefined as part of the roll out.

[Passenger 57]

I can only assume something had to be reimplemented from scratch to comply with local banking regulations.

Surely, they just use a payment API which would take care of any local variation. I just think it wasn't a high enough priority. While TfNSW may have licensed TfL code it's possible that code is inconsistent with whatever architecture TfNSW uses which must now deal with prepaid account based cards, i.e. Opal Digital which is something that is only a longer term objective for TfL. I assume TfL integrated contactless history into the existing Oyster applications. Adding the functionality to Opal Connect had to wait until they decided exactly what Opal Connect was for and how it should work with the 3 different 'card' payment methods that exist for Opal. It's even possible that contactless (now?) relies on the work done for Opal Digital. It could be contactless is treated as a special sort of prepaid account with auto top-up that is allowed to have a zero balance though treating Opal Digital as just another EMV card and applying credits via the payment gateway is just as valid. Opal Digital seems to be the current priority or rather any announcables that can be derived from it to give the illusion of progress.

Opal Digital is the only payment method that can be used to spend modal transfer credits earned from on-demand travel but AFAIK it along with contactless does not qualify as payment method that will currently earn on-demand <-> Opal network transfer credits. Perhaps this will change for the upcoming trial of transfer credits in association with various private transport services where Opal Digital will be the only payment mechanism that qualifies for transfer credits (payment for the private service will need to be made this way it seems.)

[mattyc]

I suspect you are overthinking it.

Probably.

Someone in TfNSW has had the 'bright idea' of making 'paid areas' (Metro stations overseas often have lines on the ground marking the 'paid' area, especially on 'proof of payment' systems with no gate lines).
They have had ground decals made up and sent a contractor out to place them with no instruction other than 'put them near the Opal poles'.

Marking paid areas to make them explicit is a decent idea. They have have existed for Opal since the relevant regulations were gazetted. Placing them anywhere else but at the Opal poles would probably require a change of regulation.

There are LOT of stations where this will make no sense what so ever, with the top up machines and kiosks now in the 'paid' area, footbridges that are used by the locals to cross the line now in the 'paid' area, etc

There appears to be no change in areas, the new signage just makes the boundaries more explicit. I do wonder if there was some need that arose after all these years.

There was no logic I could see with the Opal pole placement - the only requirement appeared to be to put them where the T-Card cabling wasn't. As a result adjacent stations on my line that share similar architecture (would be near identical if the original concourse building at my station hadn't burned down years ago), one has the Opal poles up on the footbridge near the ticket office, the other has the Opal poles at the bottom of the stairs to the platforms. Station with similar patronage too - with quite a different number of Opal terminals due to one station having the concentrated at the station entrance on the foot bridgege and the other having them on each platform.

Great minds at work. I can accept that some readers were placed in less than optimal positions due to the lack of perhaps consistent oversight placed where ever it was most beneficial to the contractor. Applying ground marking though is a lot easier than installing readers so I'm disappointed that the paid areas are not being redefined as part of the roll out.

Just to point out a slightly more obvious answer to this … the markings came about mid/late last year (from memory) around the time there were covid rules around mask wearing on public transport. I’d guess that these designated ‘paid areas’ made it easier for customers to know when to mask up?


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[Passenger 57]

I don't recall the term "paid area" being mentioned in conjunction with the public health order. For buses and trams the paid area definitions are not relevant yet the health order applied to passengers waiting for those services too. While donning a mask when entering a paid area would have been sensible behaviour I don't think that was technically required at least for outside areas but it wouldn't surprise me if there were signs inside or adjacent to paid areas directing passengers to do so.

[boxythingy]

Would there be a significant loss if the daily cap amount also halved after 8 journeys has been completed?

[moa999]

Would be some reduction in revenue..
But I'd think for the majority of users they've hit the weekly cap anyway.

Other than those whose daily trip is the shortest.

[boxythingy]

If after 8 journeys:

"Free" becomes "half fares" which also means "$0.00" day cap should become "day cap divided by 2"?

Am I the only one to see this logic?

Also does 6 default fares for Mode: Train (8.86*6=$53.16) hit the weekly cap, or is the cap for journeys completed with a set of tap on and tap off?

[Fleet Lists]

I am sorry but I dont see any logic in that post.

[Passenger 57]

If after 8 journeys:

"Free" becomes "half fares" which also means "$0.00" day cap should become "day cap divided by 2"?

Am I the only one to see this logic?

It is somewhat disingenuous that the daily cap is not halved after 8 journeys but Opal has never been terribly consistent and the government is happy to take additional revenue whenever it easily can. Given that one of the reasons for changing from "8 then free" was to pay for transfer rebates and that the transfer rebate has not increased in line with other fare increases is a further insult to the injury.

The best that can be said, is that the rule stays simple and doesn't need to deal with the case where the 8th journey occurs during the day and there are subsequent journeys on the same day.

Also does 6 default fares for Mode: Train (8.86*6=$53.16) hit the weekly cap, or is the cap for journeys completed with a set of tap on and tap off?

Yes, default fares count towards daily and weekly caps. FWIW, a journey still counts for the "travel reward" if an earlier trip in the same journey did not incur a default fare.

[boxythingy]

I am sorry but I dont see any logic in that post.

The transfer discount, if it can be even utilised, in situations for example, the bus does not leave just as train arrives or vice versa, is inconsistently halved.

[Fleet Lists]

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... -customers

Savings on demand for BRIDJ customers
Published17 May 2021

Transport for NSW has today announced that On Demand customers in the Inner West will be able to save up to $2 each trip when connecting their On Demand trip to other public transport services.

A Transport for NSW Spokesperson said this benefit comes as Transport for NSW streamlines systems for customers by integrating bookings for On Demand services such as the Inner West BRIDJ service onto the Opal Connect platform.

“Opal Connect provides customers easy access to a single online platform to pay for public and private transport services, as well as access to additional benefits such as travel credits,” said a Transport for NSW Spokesperson.

“Customers will see this credit in their Opal Connect account when they pay for their On Demand service using Opal Connect and continue their journey onto other public transport services within 60 minutes using their linked Opal, credit or debit card.

“The technology has already been successfully introduced on Edmondson Park, Northern Beaches, Lake Macquarie, The Ponds and Norwest On Demand services and we are excited to bring it to our customers in Sydney’s Inner West.”

A Transport for NSW Spokesperson said the On Demand service in the Inner West connects customers from Rhodes, Mortlake and Five Dock to local public transport hubs, shopping centres and hospitals.

“Customers in the Inner West are taking around 5000 trips a month using On Demand services, and this is a great incentive for more customers to make On Demand part of their journey,” said a Transport for NSW Spokesperson.

To benefit from the travel credit, customers will need to tap on to continue their journey within 60 minutes of completing their On Demand trip.

As part of this change, Opal Pay will no longer be available on these services from June 21. There will also be a fare change to bring the Inner West On Demand service in line with Opal bus fares from May 17.

For more information visit: https://transportnsw.info/opal-connect-help

[boxythingy]

I'm not sure if this was ever noted, but TfNSW certainly didn't inform everyone en masse. One can actually register contactless payment method details into Opal Connect (previously used for On Demand vehicle payments and $2 reimbursements only)

Unlike entering your details manually everytime by using the Opal Card App or checker on the Opal Card website, you can see exact tap on and off locations (but you'll only have 3 tries at guessing a pair of tap on and tap off locations for initial verification purposes), and dispute incorrect fares from the Opal Connect interface. Such convenience!

however there are now three Opal Card websites: half functioning default base Cubic legacy, TfNSW skinned, and Opal Connect. Confusing. Oh then there's the half a dozen different apps for each of the On Demand Bus services

[pgt]

I'm not sure if this was ever noted, but TfNSW certainly didn't inform everyone en masse. One can actually register contactless payment method details into Opal Connect (previously used for On Demand vehicle payments and $2 reimbursements only)

Unlike entering your details manually everytime by using the Opal Card App or checker on the Opal Card website, you can see exact tap on and off locations (but you'll only have 3 tries at guessing a pair of tap on and tap off locations for initial verification purposes), and dispute incorrect fares from the Opal Connect interface. Such convenience!

I think there was some mention in passing, although it's not very useful when you get the exact stop names and it still fails to validate the two trips I used my contactless card on (normally I use either a physical Opal card or the digital one as part of the trial).

[boxythingy]

Would that be for bus stops? That would be the GPS fault of mobile bus readers in that case.