Leyland Royal Tiger Questions

[Dennis96]

Its interesting to speculate and I suggest its possible some of Leyland's customers were so faithful to Leyland that they accepted the synchromesh gearboxes well after WWII when Leyland's competitors were offering pre-select gearboxes. Also a synchromesh was much easier to drive and a step ahead of what it replaced and for operators not familiar with fluid flywheels and pre-select gearboxes, there may have been ignorance of their benefits or fear of reliability/higher maintenance issues.

An example is the Metro Bus Company of Western Australia, which pre the takeover from 1958 of Perth's suburban bus operators by the Government in the form of the Metropolitan (Perth) Passenger Transport Trust was Perth's largest privately owned fleet, which with the exception of a handful of Dennis Lancets and SB Bedfords was basically 100% Leyland.

Metro went through the various models of vertically engined Leylands (including pre-war buses with the Lysholm-Smith "gearless" transmission which were subsequently converted to conventional manual transmisisons of the time) to the OPS4, OPSU and Worldmaster chassis. Presumably Metro was generally very pleased with Leyland, had a vast quantity of Leyland spares, many of which could carry over as models changed and their mechanical staff were familiar with Leyland's engineering. I am not aware of Metro calling tenders from other manufacturers, merely placing orders with Leyland.

[Dave Wilson]

Dennis 96 - in a file record of the DRTT I note that there was a 250 quid difference between a preselector AEC and a synchro mesh Leyland OPD2. Cost of a preselector box may have something to do with it

[boronia]

Boronia - I'm pretty sure none of the MMTB half cabs (or dds) were upgraded to constant mesh but certainly the Sydney deckers were. Torque converters were swapped into half cabs-not that there were that many tc double deckers in the first place. Now, this is the big question. I have heard that Bowden is also supposed to have operated an ex MMTB double decker - do you ever remember seeing that? If it did operate it would have been the only one to have seen further bus use that we know of.

I was aware of the Sydney TD5s being converted, and I've read of it happening a lot in the UK. I suspect there may have been maintenance issues (blown seals, etc) and well as a performance issues involved. A small number of UK fire engines got the TC box, and I believe these weren't successful either. (The NSW FB got a pneumo equipped LAD cabbed Chieftan around 1970, but changed that to to a manual box after only a couple of years!!)

I have never seen a decker with Bowden's, nor even heard of it. Hope I didn't miss out on something like this in my childhood!! If it was, probably would have been well before the TS7s. I presume all the MMTB deckers were withdrawn after the tram conversion in 1955??

[Dave Wilson]

Sydney only had TD3/4cs - no TD-5s , I think they learnt their lesson with torque converters on the 59s (459s) Parramatta rd Annandale (what's that hill called again?)before the TD-5 arrived. Bowden actually had two Mod 80 Albion deckers (ex 1178 and 1206) purchased ca 1951 but they didn't last long. One went to Kogarah Bus Serv (Le Quesne) and the other to James Hill, W'Gong after about 18mths. All Melb dds were withdrawn in 53/54 prior to Bourke St conversion. I suspect Bowden's Melb dd may have only lasted a few months and probably ended up with Black and White Sandgate for 'partial' rebodying.B/W bought quite a few and used windows and side framing/bits and pieces to build single deckers.

I wish you had bought one of those Portland ones - what a treasure a running TS-11c would be today!! .

[boronia]

I wish you had bought one of those Portland ones - what a treasure a running TS-11c would be today!! .

Excuse my mixing up the model numbers, gets a bit confusing some times. Newnhams has a shed out past Wallerawang on the Mudgee road, near the Wolgan turnoff. There were about 6 lying derelict in a shed back then, I often wonder what happened to them. I think there were still a couple in service at that time, a depot somewhere around Lithgow. Did Bowden's come from Newnhams, or direct from Melbourne?

[Dave Wilson]

I think Bowdens came direct from the MMTB. Several are out at Glen Davis in derelict condition, one is built into a house on the Mudgee road (with engine) and Adrian Price acquired 154 for preservation. It is now at the TMSV with two other drop enders. All are fairly poor and will probably never see the light of day again as they require major work. At least they are safe and under cover.

[Herbert]

... Presumably Metro was generally very pleased with Leyland, had a vast quantity of Leyland spares ...

I'm amazed that you didn't mention that your namesake and her sisters were Leyland-ised when acquired second-hand by Metro, despite their being only about 3 years old! They received O600 engines, Leyland synchro gearboxes & exposed Leyland radiators. Dennis 94 & Dennis 97 were even half-cabbed such that they resembled OPS4s.

boronia, would be interested to hear more of your observations about the "gearless" Leylands, including arrangement & use of the gear lever (I believe it had 4 positions).

[RK215]

The AEC synchro boxes fitted to Reliances (if they were the same ones intended for the Regal IV) were a nice box, with about the same shift effort required as the Leyland box fitted to the Leopard L1. The gate was very close together with reverse at the top and a crawler at the bottom left side of the H.

I don’t have by any means a full accounting of AEC manual gearboxes, but here is what I think I know in respect of the bus models since the Regal IV.

The Regal IV had a 4-speed synchromesh gearbox, similar to that used on the Regal/Regent III/V. It might have been remotely mounted, as well. I understand that synchromesh-fitted export Regal IV’s were quite scarce. The Regal VI appeared to have started out as Monocontrol, but a ZF 6-speed overdrive synchromesh option was added early on.

The original Reliance (MU, 2MU series) had the AEC 5-speed synchromesh gearbox. Things started getting a bit more complex in 1961, when the Reliance 470 (4MU) and Reliance 590 (2U) were introduced. The AEC 5-speed synchromesh unit was standard on the 2MU and 4MU, but both had the option of the AEC 6-speed overdrive constant mesh gearbox. The 2U had the AEC 4-speed synchromesh gearbox as standard, with the ZF 6-speed overdrive synchromesh unit optional.

In 1966, the Reliance 505 6MU inherited the same manual transmission options as the 2MU and 4MU models that it replaced. But the Reliance 691 6U, which replaced the 2U, had only one manual transmission option, namely the ZF 6-speed overdrive synchromesh.

The AEC 5-speed synchromesh gearbox seems to have been sized to accept the torque of the mid-sized engines, but not of the larger engines.

The Leopard L is sometimes said to have had the same drivetrain as the Royal Tiger OPSU. Whilst that is essentially true of the engine and rear axle, it did have a later, reworked version of the Leyland 4-speed synchromesh gearbox, dating from circa 1955. This had synchromesh on 3rd and 4th only, with both 1st and 2nd being constant mesh. The original had synchromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th, with 1st being sliding mesh. In part the rework was said to be have been undertaken to remedy problems with the original design. And as by 1955 Leyland was promoting its Pneumocyclic gearbox, a less elaborate specification for the manual alternative was said to be acceptable. But the Leopard L never had the Pneumocyclic option. Designed initially for the UK coach market, presumably the synchromesh transmission was considered optimal. The arrival of the PSU3, and the consequent drop in L sales probably made releasing a Pneumocyclic version a low priority; in fact one that was not actioned until the PSU4 replaced the L circa 1966.

Following the AEC acquisition in 1962, Leyland certainly had quite a diversity of manual transmissions being used in its various bus models. A partial listing would include:

AEC 4-speed synchromesh (Regent V, Reliance 590 2U, Renown)
AEC 5-speed synchromesh (Ranger, Reliance 2MU, Reliance 470 4MU)
AEC 6-speed overdrive constant mesh (Reliance 2MU, Reliance 470 4MU)
Albion 5-speed constant mesh (Tiger Cub)
Albion/Group 5/6 speed constant mesh (Comet, Nimbus, Victor)
Leyland 4-speed synchromesh (Leopard L, Leopard PSU3, Lowlander, Royal Tiger Cub, Tiger Cub, Titan)

Cheers,

[mrobsessed]

That explains why 2520 (the prototype Sydney OPSU1/1) was an absolute dog of a thing - even at Rutty's. It took a real driver to get 1st-2nd right.

[Dave Wilson]

Pioneer Bus Service Bexley had a very early Regal IV and it was a pre-selector with a classic heavy Syd Wood body- M/O 4095. I think it was delivered about 1952 or 3, quite sometime before the DGT units arrived and as traffic congestion increased through Hurstville, Bexley etc it was deemed too slow to maintain the timetable! The equally classic Reliances 620 634 711 were probably a bit quicker off the mark.

4095 which had a very striking appearance, still survives in the town of Coonamble as football changeroom.

[Dennis96]

Herbert,

Great minds think alike.... I was in the throes of adding a PS about them re-engining the ex Beam Bus Co Dennis with 0600's to my Metro post, but inadvertently hit the "Post" button before so doing!!

I recall the original Regal IV in WA delivered new to Kalamunda Bus Service and became MTT 201 was very heavy and slow, although not as bad as the solitary Guy Arab underfloor (WA Govt Tramways 135 that became MTT 308). It did not seem to have the sprightliness of a Regal III and seemed sluggish when compared with the batch of Regal IV's delivered to the Fremantle Municipal Tramways.

Coming back to Metro and possibly other Leyland customers sticking with Leyland even during the period just after WWII when many operators were pleased to grab whatever chassis were available and ended up with fleets of varied makes and models, is it possible Leyland gave priority to existing customers that had demonstrated brand loyalty by not buying from others?

[Dave Wilson]

I guess a 0.600 would fit 6 cylinder Dennis very nicely. The six cyl Dennis seems to have been a fairly bulky engine. Dennis chasses seem to have been incredibly strong cruciform chassis similar to Foden construction.

[Herbert]

Here's a couple of photos to illustrate:

MTT 92 (ex-Metro 92, ex-Beam No ?) at Trigg Depot prior to departing on an enthusiasts' extravaganza. Dennis96 photo, I think:



MTT 97 (ex-Metro 97, ex-Beam No ?) at Morley Depot - looking very much like an OPS4. Photographer unknown:



These Lancets date from circa 1950. Metro took over Beam's Fremantle running on 30.11.1951. They were Leyland-ised between during 1956-1957 - whilst making them a bit older than I mentioned above, nevertheless they would have been at most 7 years old.

These conversions clearly demonstrate Metro's Leyland fixation. One would have thought that in their original configuration, the Dennis overdrive gearbox would have been most suitable on Metro's long runs like Fremantle-Rockingham.

[boronia]

I guess a 0.600 would fit 6 cylinder Dennis very nicely. The six cyl Dennis seems to have been a fairly bulky engine. Dennis chasses seem to have been incredibly strong cruciform chassis similar to Foden construction.

A few of the larger Dennis fire engines in the UK which were fitted originally with the Meadows 6EX petrol engines seem to have been "upgraded" with the O.600.

[boronia]

boronia, would be interested to hear more of your observations about the "gearless" Leylands, including arrangement & use of the gear lever (I believe it had 4 positions).

Herbert:
It is 40 years ago now, but I think the 4 positions would be correct:
1. Neutral
2. Converter drive
3. Direct drive
4. Reverse.

to start the bus, you put it into converter drive, when speed got up to about 20 mph, pull the stick into "lock-up". This would be the equivalent of top gear in a conventional box, so for the equivalent lower ratios you relied on the converter. Slowing down was the reverse procedure, you would have had to be careful not to stall the engine though !!

Dave:
I would like to have bought one at the time, but was wary of the parts situation, and Newhams wanted more for one of the wrecks in the shed than they did for a going vehicle. So bought the little Dennis instead.

[Dave Wilson]

So they fitted the Dennises with PD2 rads? Did they originally have the Lancet 11/111 style rad originally?

[boronia]

Wash your mouth out: You should know about fitting Dennises with Leyland engines!!

No, they retained the original Dennis radiator, we are talking about n/c chassis. There were two radiator types available in this era: an "open" type with brass header tanks, or an "enclosed" type with chromed steel outer shell. Both were different shapes to the Lancet bus type.

[Dave Wilson]

I have duely washed my mouth out with WA whites, but I am still with it enough to clearly read that the buses in the photo are Dennises.But they have PD2 rads???.

[Herbert]

I think boronia was thinking of his Dennis fire engines. Yes, they are OPS4 radiators on the Metro Dennises

[boronia]

Ah, there are two threads here relating to Dennis-Leyland conversions, I thought you were referring to mine.

[Dave Wilson]

They all look like fire engines at the moment. So how many Dennises were so converted? There must have been a fair amount of body work to accommodate the big OPS radiators.

[Dennis96]

Now you guys have got me. The ex Beam Bus Co Dennis that were half cabbed were definitely fitted with proper Leyland exposed radiators, but Im not so sure about the full fronts. They seemed to have a more home made type job and IIRC were painted in the dark green body colour.

Perhaps the 0600 is longer than the Dennis engine so the radiator would protrude out the front. When new, these Dennis buses had the traditonal front panels and mudguards as provided by Dennis for chassis to be fitted with full front coach work - as per my avatar. Rebuilding the entire front of a full fronted bus into a half cab would enable a neater job to be achieved if the new mechanicals were to extend forwards than may be the case with installing a longer engine into existing bodywork, but I am only speculating. I am also unsure whether the half cab conversion of 97 was done by Metro or MTT in its formative years. MTT did convert ex WAGovt Tramways full front AEC Regal III's to half cabs and was an enthusiastic supporter of half cabs in preference to full front bodies .

[Herbert]

9 Dennises were taken over; 2 sold off unconverted. Half-cab conversions were done by Metro pre-MTT, ie 94 in 1957 & 97 in 1956, presumably at the same time they were re-engined.

Looking at the photo of 92 above, although painted green, that rad still looks PD2/OPS4 style with an off-centre filler.

[Herbert]

Another view of 92:

[RK215]

In respect of the Leyland 4-speed synchromesh transmissions, from the comments made in this thread it seems as if the later edition, as used on the Leopard, Royal Tiger Cub and Tiger Cub worked adequately well.

On the other hand the early edition, as used on the Royal Tiger OPSU1, was evidently troublesome at times, as evidenced by the comment made in respect of Sydney 2520. Does anyone know if this originally had the air-assistance unit?

On the other hand, the Metro synchromesh Royal Tigers had long and productive lives. Herbert has noted that these started out with the air-assistance unit, but lost it somewhere along the way. But assuming that they retained the early edition of the gearbox, it must have been seen as reasonably acceptable, both from the maintenance and driving viewpoints. Or were these buses perhaps retrofitted with the later edition gearbox somewhere along the way?

Also, I think that Sydney had quite a few OPD2’s fitted with the early 4-speed synchromesh gearbox. How did these perform in service? I have heard that they were generally regarded as easier to drive than the buses with constant mesh gearboxes.

Cheers,