Full self-driving

[tonyp]

Surely can't be too long before this gets to buses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETyiRsdjvk

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

First, we'll have to wait till the RTBU kicks up another stink...

[Merc1107]

So that's why Teslas seem to be darting across several lanes at once! I thought it was just a mass exodus from the Toyota Camry...

[tonyp]

The Mother-in-Law test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdeqATKCJJU

I found it amusing that all the videos I've seen so far have been male drivers, who keep their hands close to the wheel like dutiful good boys. The vastly more complex female of the species, as we know, talks with her hands. Just watch those hands go, but it doesn't seem to phase the FSD!

[rtt_rules]

The Mother-in-Law test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdeqATKCJJU

I found it amusing that all the videos I've seen so far have been male drivers, who keep their hands close to the wheel like dutiful good boys. The vastly more complex female of the species, as we know, talks with her hands. Just watch those hands go, but it doesn't seem to phase the FSD!

I'm not sure how any vehicle witrh FSD can be driven with so called people asleep etc or not hands on for extended periods of time. They all have warnings and if you don't respond the car stops. Hell Tesla even locks you out for a week if you are not responsive to the cars request to stay in control.

I hired a cheaper Chinese car 3 years back with semi self steering and it was pretty good most of the time. Got lost on the Hume a few times when the lane markings were absent and on two lane coundtry roads without a side white line. It also didn't like me not holding the wheel.

[rtt_rules]

Surely can't be too long before this gets to buses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FETyiRsdjvk

Adelaide introduced it 40 - 50 years ago with the O-bahn for steering, easy to add cruise control and auto brake.

Trams are effectively capable of FSD, but we still retain a driver to operate the brake, trottle and open and close doors.

But yes on busways it won't be long.

[tonyp]

Adelaide introduced it 40 - 50 years ago with the O-bahn for steering, easy to add cruise control and auto brake.

Trams are effectively capable of FSD, but we still retain a driver to operate the brake, trottle and open and close doors.

But yes on busways it won't be long.

Already available on trams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6SaS_yQ7Y

[rtt_rules]

Adelaide introduced it 40 - 50 years ago with the O-bahn for steering, easy to add cruise control and auto brake.

Trams are effectively capable of FSD, but we still retain a driver to operate the brake, trottle and open and close doors.

But yes on busways it won't be long.

Already available on trams.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua6SaS_yQ7Y

Nice, you would think it shouldn't be too hard, especially on corridors like L1 Sydney and GC line.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

Would be a pain on the L2/L3 though with all the jaywalkers who don't seem to be able to see/hear a giant red tram approaching them. The media would have a field day if someone was run over by a self-driving tram - that is, if the union doesn't derail it first..

[tonyp]

Would be a pain on the L2/L3 though with all the jaywalkers who don't seem to be able to see/hear a giant red tram approaching them. The media would have a field day if someone was run over by a self-driving tram - that is, if the union doesn't derail it first..

Anti-collision systems are already in use on trams running on-street in Europe. The tech for automation in an open environment is already established and proven. Trams can definitely already be driven safely by FSD. The next issue to resolve is whether you have staff on board, notably to operate the doors, or whether you go beyond that - which would probably require PSDs on platforms. A bit like the step-up from GoA2 to GoA4 for trains.

An example of early system testing from five years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCF8vl4ImaQ

[tonyp]

https://www.railwaygazette.com/light-ra ... 50.article

[rtt_rules]

Would be a pain on the L2/L3 though with all the jaywalkers who don't seem to be able to see/hear a giant red tram approaching them. The media would have a field day if someone was run over by a self-driving tram - that is, if the union doesn't derail it first..

Anti-collision systems are already in use on trams running on-street in Europe. The tech for automation in an open environment is already established and proven. Trams can definitely already be driven safely by FSD. The next issue to resolve is whether you have staff on board, notably to operate the doors, or whether you go beyond that - which would probably require PSDs on platforms. A bit like the step-up from GoA2 to GoA4 for trains.

An example of early system testing from five years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCF8vl4ImaQ

What is interesting is not that its automated, its that the location in the videobeing trialled is Moscow where wages are much lower than Western Europe.

FYI - Russia has a shortage of labour due to declining birth rate, large scale migration of young people escaping Putinville and risk of conscription, basically zero immigration, other oppurtunties attracking young people, blue collar backgrounds being used as target practice for the Ukrainian army and with large numbers of migrant workers from central asia filling the gaps although many left rather than risk being rounded up and sent on a one way trip to Ukraine.

Basically over last 3 years, 1 million young males killed or wounded in Ukraine and millions more left the country (UAE has almost 1 M Russians and Ukrainians)

FAQ

Do you need staff on board a LR that has FSD?

Yes, traditional LR has one staff member, the driver who is multi function in their role, mostly driving but also CSO and to a point security. What is lacking is revenue protection. Also back up to technical faults and we all know there are idiots who will F# with the trams if left un supervised. In Istambul the idiots climb on the back and pull down the pano wire to slow it down and make it spark.

As the role of the driver is becoming easily automated, this allows this role to be transferred to a role that is better suited to looking after asset protection, CSO and revenue protection.

Do you need PSD?

No, PSD's are because of the large gap / fall to the track, difficultly in getting back up and due to trains being faster, poorer braking performance vs LR, the only place humans and trains come in close proximty is the platform and the unlikley hood of survival.

Tram's / LR have a minor step up platform, some not even this.

Approach speed is slower, better braking performance and the tram ROW is already operating in the public domain where it needs collision avoidance systems anyway so would you bother with FSD for just 30 m at stations?

Additionally
Yes I think this would be relatively straightforward to trial in the likes of L1, GC, ACT etc. L2, L3, Melbourne and Adelaide with more exposed ROW's I'm thinking this will take some time because just one injury / death and it will quickly killed off by th union and risk adverse govt.

[tonyp]

In Europe they typically use squads of RPOs doing random boardings for revenue protection. The fear of being caught is high and effective. Tram and bus drivers typically have no role in revenue protection, security or as CSOs. Security dictates that they're confined to their cabs and all-door boarding keeps passenger flows away from contact with the driver. The operating conditions are there for automation.

[Busman66]

I'm sure Volvo will think of something, can't see it being of use, though. Puts drivers out of work. Didn't Russell Island have a self driving minibus at some point?

[1whoknows]

Volvo has been testing an autonomous full size bus in Sweden during 2025. Personally I have my doubts given the erratic behaviours reported for some self driving Teslas in Asia and the US. The first "autonomous" bus I rode on (an early trial in Sion Switzerland in 2017) had not one but two "minders" on board, equalling the number of pax for the journey!

[Busman66]

Tesla CyberBus

[rtt_rules]

Volvo has been testing an autonomous full size bus in Sweden during 2025. Personally I have my doubts given the erratic behaviours reported for some self driving Teslas in Asia and the US. The first "autonomous" bus I rode on (an early trial in Sion Switzerland in 2017) had not one but two "minders" on board, equalling the number of pax for the journey!

The difference with Tesla and other self drive technology is that Tesla has tried to avoid using LIDAR technology for which it appears their success isn't as good as they would prefer.

Additionally self driving buses are easier to manage as their routes are fixed so the technology can have high detail surveys for the computer, almost instant update of conditions and ensure specialised road markings and other signage to ensure reliabilty. The problem with car self drive is that its expected to operate everywhere regardless of the road, road marking and signage conditions, which is a huge challenge and basically to date not 100% succesful.

[Busman66]

Tesla is also a supervised self driving, also the system would have to be able to detect the RHD of Australia. There would also have to be a system that deals with unruly passengers. Polestar, Volvo's electric company, has supervised self-driving, and maybe it could be tested on a BZL Optimus, would make for an interesting trial, I can see HBL doing that. But, full self driving won't happen anytime soon, supervised might.

[rtt_rules]

Tesla is also a supervised self driving, also the system would have to be able to detect the RHD of Australia. There would also have to be a system that deals with unruly passengers. Polestar, Volvo's electric company, has supervised self-driving, and maybe it could be tested on a BZL Optimus, would make for an interesting trial, I can see HBL doing that. But, full self driving won't happen anytime soon, supervised might.

Tesla's Robo taxis are I think full self driving.

[Busman66]

Tesla is also a supervised self driving, also the system would have to be able to detect the RHD of Australia. There would also have to be a system that deals with unruly passengers. Polestar, Volvo's electric company, has supervised self-driving, and maybe it could be tested on a BZL Optimus, would make for an interesting trial, I can see HBL doing that. But, full self driving won't happen anytime soon, supervised might.

Tesla's Robo taxis are I think full self driving.

I am thinking of Australia, the only unsupervised driverless I can think of is the Sydney Metro, but it is a train. Waymos, Robo-taxis cannot come to Australia, I think due to awkward road layout. One of my relatives has a Polestar, and it is supervised. It would take at least half a decade until manufacturing starts on full self driving, because most of them are LHD vehicles. Hook turns in Melbourne would also be a challenge, wait until we get Drivereless trams, that would be a sight, probably for the Gold Coast because they only have one line. Trams before buses.

[tonyp]

I am thinking of Australia, the only unsupervised driverless I can think of is the Sydney Metro, but it is a train. Waymos, Robo-taxis cannot come to Australia, I think due to awkward road layout. One of my relatives has a Polestar, and it is supervised. It would take at least half a decade until manufacturing starts on full self driving, because most of them are LHD vehicles. Hook turns in Melbourne would also be a challenge, wait until we get Drivereless trams, that would be a sight, probably for the Gold Coast because they only have one line. Trams before buses.

Also Rio Tinto Hammersley in WA and Melbourne suburban rail loop upcoming. Automated trams are already a reality in Europe. The modern tram systems in Australia will be easy to automate, being mostly in their own ROW - though that's not necessary as they're already proven in Europe for operating in mixed traffic.

Tesla's FSD is very good and, while it is supervised, the good far outweighs any downsides. Testing of it in Australia had no problem with Melbourne's hook turns. It is vastly safer than the huge number of idiots driving cars by hand on Australian roads at present. In the long term it will save many lives. Teslas are remarkable engineering, ahead of other brands, whether ICE or electric, in both primary and secondary safety. The Model 3 and Y are top scoring of any vehicle in ANCAP testing and also top in dynamic tests (like the Moose Test) in Europe. They provide an excellent platform for FSD.

[rtt_rules]

I am thinking of Australia, the only unsupervised driverless I can think of is the Sydney Metro, but it is a train. Waymos, Robo-taxis cannot come to Australia, I think due to awkward road layout.

Full Disclaimer, the italic quote below is from Gemini AI, I havn't filtered or fact checked it. The drive.com.au link I posted underneath appears to be where its getting most of its info from.

Appears WAMO is moving to UK and Japan and then Aust. I don't think RHD is such a drama, most of the systems are simply reversed unless of course they did the usual American BS and programed it from the start without RHD even in their consideration. What is really different is local road rules, road design and signage. For example USA and CAN use those stupid speed signs, not internal standards. I say stupid because when you drive in the USA they are not obvious as you are used to visual queues such as the red circle with the number inside it where as the American speed signs just disappear in the back ground.

UAE has limited self driving taxi's and are being slowly expanded based on experience. Like Australia the laws and regs had to be changed and each Emirate does its own thing, however they seemed less risk adverse in doing so and allowed them to operate in very specific areas with reasonable road conditions, as a starter.

Agree GC, ACT, Adelaide and Sydney LR could all easily be auto drive converted as mostly own ROW and where not already painfully slow operating speed. I would prefer the drivers role be converted to roaming on board CSO, asset and revenue protection. ie security, fare checkers.

The one to really watch for is trucks on major multi lane highways such as M-S-B. Due to a shortage of drivers, growing concern over the quality of the sub-cont imports and general regulation around driver rest breaks. Very easy to have a truck head off from Melbourne desto Syd on auto pilot. No they wouldn't be plowing through the burbs, they would likely have launch and retriveal stations outside the burbs, at least intially and drive non stop. Or if they go EV truck, then auto stop at recharge station then go again until economic dynamic charging is resolved. Rail will under further competitive finacial stress.




Full self-driving (FSD) taxis aren't fully here yet in Australia, but expect limited trials soon and broader rollout post-2027, with Waymo eyeing 2026/2027 for robotaxi testing, while the government works on regulations that could see wider use by 2030, though it's a phased approach with supervised driving already available.
Key Timelines & Developments:
Now (2026): Tesla's "Full Self-Driving (Supervised)" is available, requiring a driver, and Waymo aims for testing in Australia, potentially with Geely vehicles.
By 2027: Australia aims to have an end-to-end regulatory framework for safe autonomous vehicle (AV) deployment.
Around 2027-2030: Experts anticipate the first true driverless cars and robotaxis on roads as regulations catch up.
Long-Term (2030+): A significant portion of new vehicles could be highly automated, with forecasts suggesting up to half of new cars by 2046.
Challenges:
Regulations: Australia currently has over 700 laws preventing fully autonomous vehicles, with new legislation needed.
Framework: The national framework for AVs is still being developed, with a target completion by 2027, delaying full commercial deployment.
Who's Involved:
Waymo (Google): Actively pushing to test its driverless taxis in Australia, engaging with state governments like NSW.
Tesla: Already offers supervised FSD in Australia, allowing self-driving with a supervising driver.
Government: Working on national legislation to enable safe introduction.
In essence, while you can use advanced driver-assist features now, fully driverless taxis in Australia are a few years away, contingent on regulatory progress, with testing starting soon and broader availability expected in the latter half of the decade.

Other reference
https://www.drive.com.au/news/waymo-aut ... er-report/

[Busman66]

I am thinking of Australia, the only unsupervised driverless I can think of is the Sydney Metro, but it is a train. Waymos, Robo-taxis cannot come to Australia, I think due to awkward road layout.

Full Disclaimer, the italic quote below is from Gemini AI, I havn't filtered or fact checked it. The drive.com.au link I posted underneath appears to be where its getting most of its info from.

Appears WAMO is moving to UK and Japan and then Aust. I don't think RHD is such a drama, most of the systems are simply reversed unless of course they did the usual American BS and programed it from the start without RHD even in their consideration. What is really different is local road rules, road design and signage. For example USA and CAN use those stupid speed signs, not internal standards. I say stupid because when you drive in the USA they are not obvious as you are used to visual queues such as the red circle with the number inside it where as the American speed signs just disappear in the back ground.

UAE has limited self driving taxi's and are being slowly expanded based on experience. Like Australia the laws and regs had to be changed and each Emirate does its own thing, however they seemed less risk adverse in doing so and allowed them to operate in very specific areas with reasonable road conditions, as a starter.

Agree GC, ACT, Adelaide and Sydney LR could all easily be auto drive converted as mostly own ROW and where not already painfully slow operating speed. I would prefer the drivers role be converted to roaming on board CSO, asset and revenue protection. ie security, fare checkers.

The one to really watch for is trucks on major multi lane highways such as M-S-B. Due to a shortage of drivers, growing concern over the quality of the sub-cont imports and general regulation around driver rest breaks. Very easy to have a truck head off from Melbourne desto Syd on auto pilot. No they wouldn't be plowing through the burbs, they would likely have launch and retriveal stations outside the burbs, at least intially and drive non stop. Or if they go EV truck, then auto stop at recharge station then go again until economic dynamic charging is resolved. Rail will under further competitive finacial stress.




Full self-driving (FSD) taxis aren't fully here yet in Australia, but expect limited trials soon and broader rollout post-2027, with Waymo eyeing 2026/2027 for robotaxi testing, while the government works on regulations that could see wider use by 2030, though it's a phased approach with supervised driving already available.
Key Timelines & Developments:
Now (2026): Tesla's "Full Self-Driving (Supervised)" is available, requiring a driver, and Waymo aims for testing in Australia, potentially with Geely vehicles.
By 2027: Australia aims to have an end-to-end regulatory framework for safe autonomous vehicle (AV) deployment.
Around 2027-2030: Experts anticipate the first true driverless cars and robotaxis on roads as regulations catch up.
Long-Term (2030+): A significant portion of new vehicles could be highly automated, with forecasts suggesting up to half of new cars by 2046.
Challenges:
Regulations: Australia currently has over 700 laws preventing fully autonomous vehicles, with new legislation needed.
Framework: The national framework for AVs is still being developed, with a target completion by 2027, delaying full commercial deployment.
Who's Involved:
Waymo (Google): Actively pushing to test its driverless taxis in Australia, engaging with state governments like NSW.
Tesla: Already offers supervised FSD in Australia, allowing self-driving with a supervising driver.
Government: Working on national legislation to enable safe introduction.
In essence, while you can use advanced driver-assist features now, fully driverless taxis in Australia are a few years away, contingent on regulatory progress, with testing starting soon and broader availability expected in the latter half of the decade.

Other reference
https://www.drive.com.au/news/waymo-aut ... er-report/

In the US and Canada you have to read a novel for road signs.

[Busman66]

I am thinking of Australia, the only unsupervised driverless I can think of is the Sydney Metro, but it is a train. Waymos, Robo-taxis cannot come to Australia, I think due to awkward road layout. One of my relatives has a Polestar, and it is supervised. It would take at least half a decade until manufacturing starts on full self driving, because most of them are LHD vehicles. Hook turns in Melbourne would also be a challenge, wait until we get Drivereless trams, that would be a sight, probably for the Gold Coast because they only have one line. Trams before buses.

Also Rio Tinto Hammersley in WA and Melbourne suburban rail loop upcoming. Automated trams are already a reality in Europe. The modern tram systems in Australia will be easy to automate, being mostly in their own ROW - though that's not necessary as they're already proven in Europe for operating in mixed traffic.

Tesla's FSD is very good and, while it is supervised, the good far outweighs any downsides. Testing of it in Australia had no problem with Melbourne's hook turns. It is vastly safer than the huge number of idiots driving cars by hand on Australian roads at present. In the long term it will save many lives. Teslas are remarkable engineering, ahead of other brands, whether ICE or electric, in both primary and secondary safety. The Model 3 and Y are top scoring of any vehicle in ANCAP testing and also top in dynamic tests (like the Moose Test) in Europe. They provide an excellent platform for FSD.

Don't forget about CD, I think they will do it. Maybe also Bustech.

[rtt_rules]

On the way home from a friends house in Abu Dhabi yesterday, I passed a "NOON" (same as Amazon) automatic delivery van, about the same size as an old Suzuki Carry Van roaming the streets of a Emiratie community.