Electric Buses

[Linto63]

A place for discussing all things electric buses that don't pertain to one state or manufacturer.

[rtt_rules]

Just came back from another extensive and this time 3.5 wk work drive to China

Beijing, Zhengzhou, Zhengjhing, Jinan, Pingyin, Weifang, ZaoZhuang, Shanghai

Didn't notice one fuel bus in PT use.

A quick trip to outer Suburban town near Frankfurt, only Bendy Buses were fuel and when they went past or walked past one they sort of stood out due to noise and vibration. Not sure what the story is about their eventual electric replacement, if even planned?

I read that Perth has built its last fuel bus, others need to pull their finger out and follow the days of buying new diesel buses should be behind us.

[tonyp]

Just came back from another extensive and this time 3.5 wk work drive to China

Beijing, Zhengzhou, Zhengjhing, Jinan, Pingyin, Weifang, ZaoZhuang, Shanghai

Didn't notice one fuel bus in PT use.

A quick trip to outer Suburban town near Frankfurt, only Bendy Buses were fuel and when they went past or walked past one they sort of stood out due to noise and vibration. Not sure what the story is about their eventual electric replacement, if even planned?

I read that Perth has built its last fuel bus, others need to pull their finger out and follow the days of buying new diesel buses should be behind us.

Apart from their battery buses, Beijing has the largest trolleybus system in the world and Shanghai the oldest continuing trolleybus system in the world. There are several other trolleybus systems in China too.

Which brings me to your second question - battery alone doesn't have the endurance for heavy articulated buses, but they're working on solutions involving regular recharging (e.g. Brisbane). Otherwise electric artics have traditionally been trolleybuses, e.g. this example in Beijing.



NSW has made the same decision as WA regarding electric buses, but in both cases it's going to take a number of years to fully replace their diesel fleets. I imagine the other states are moving in the same direction.

[Merc1107]

A quick trip to outer Suburban town near Frankfurt, only Bendy Buses were fuel and when they went past or walked past one they sort of stood out due to noise and vibration. Not sure what the story is about their eventual electric replacement, if even planned?

In Europe, biogas is often used to power buses. This is waste gas captured from various industrial or agricultural activities that earns carbon credits, as burning methane is infinitely better than allowing the gas to escape into the atmosphere, given its potent greenhouse gas potential. MAN continues to produce CNG buses (which can obviously run on biogas).

[rtt_rules]

Just came back from another extensive and this time 3.5 wk work drive to China

Beijing, Zhengzhou, Zhengjhing, Jinan, Pingyin, Weifang, ZaoZhuang, Shanghai

Didn't notice one fuel bus in PT use.

A quick trip to outer Suburban town near Frankfurt, only Bendy Buses were fuel and when they went past or walked past one they sort of stood out due to noise and vibration. Not sure what the story is about their eventual electric replacement, if even planned?

I read that Perth has built its last fuel bus, others need to pull their finger out and follow the days of buying new diesel buses should be behind us.

Apart from their battery buses, Beijing has the largest trolleybus system in the world and Shanghai the oldest continuing trolleybus system in the world. There are several other trolleybus systems in China too.

Which brings me to your second question - battery alone doesn't have the endurance for heavy articulated buses, but they're working on solutions involving regular recharging (e.g. Brisbane). Otherwise electric artics have traditionally been trolleybuses, e.g. this example in Beijing.



NSW has made the same decision as WA regarding electric buses, but in both cases it's going to take a number of years to fully replace their diesel fleets. I imagine the other states are moving in the same direction.

[rtt_rules]

Apart from their battery buses, Beijing has the largest trolleybus system in the world and Shanghai the oldest continuing trolleybus system in the world. There are several other trolleybus systems in China too.

Which brings me to your second question - battery alone doesn't have the endurance for heavy articulated buses, but they're working on solutions involving regular recharging (e.g. Brisbane). Otherwise electric artics have traditionally been trolleybuses, e.g. this example in Beijing.



NSW has made the same decision as WA regarding electric buses, but in both cases it's going to take a number of years to fully replace their diesel fleets. I imagine the other states are moving in the same direction.

Thanks for the info, yes it will take a full life cycle to fully phase out diesel. I assume the current diesels last up to 20 years.

I think in China where the trolley system exists, they obvious make use of that. But where there isn't, they install stationary charging which I've seen in some locations such as large bus stops.

I'm reading that the EV bendies have ranges from 200 - 300 km for many, some models longer. But yes, to be more practical it needs enroute charging at terminus locations or at least locations where the bus is stationary for at least 5 min. With battery sizes of say 350 to 450 kWH 5 min at 350 kW charging rate will give 25 to 30 kWh per charge.

What is the longeest articulated bus route in Sydney? Google tells me it was 430 at 27 km for which it took just 56 min or so to go from end to end, no idea now. Assuming this to be correct, thats say 3 round trips per charge (assuming max 200 km). So thats 6 h with breaks at each end assume to be pushing 7 - 8 h. If there was at a minimum of 1h charging in this time, then easy the to see 12h of continous operation.

[Lt. Commander Data]

SA Gov announced the last fully diesel bus delivered in 2022. All deliveries since have been hybrids with 60 electric buses on order too.

https://www.busnews.com.au/sa-orders-60 ... ric-buses/

[tonyp]

SA Gov announced the last fully diesel bus delivered in 2022. All deliveries since have been hybrids with 60 electric buses on order too.

https://www.busnews.com.au/sa-orders-60 ... ric-buses/

Thanks. It will be interesting to see which Scania chassis and what type of body.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

What is the longeest articulated bus route in Sydney? Google tells me it was 430 at 27 km for which it took just 56 min or so to go from end to end, no idea now. Assuming this to be correct, thats say 3 round trips per charge (assuming max 200 km). So thats 6 h with breaks at each end assume to be pushing 7 - 8 h. If there was at a minimum of 1h charging in this time, then easy the to see 12h of continous operation.

Route 190X from Wynyard to Avalon seems to be the longest articulated bus route in Sydney at 36 km long (haven't checked loop services but I think . A significant number of 190X services seem to operate as standalone trips, i.e. bus leaves depot, goes to Wynyard, runs to Avalon and returns to depot (vice versa for the AM peak). For KDNB, range might be a bit of an issue for trips on Route 144 where buses often operate multiple trips per shift (a return trip on the 144 is ~34 km long).

As for other artic routes, vehicles on Busways North West routes 288 (20 km) and 292 (24 km) can operate four trips (2 return trips), maybe more - a total of 96 km in route service for the 292 (not including deadrunning to/from depot). Keeping in mind that quoted vehicle range is often for non-stop operation, so such a shift would be really pushing the boundaries range wise.

[rtt_rules]

Route 190X from Wynyard to Avalon seems to be the longest articulated bus route in Sydney at 36 km long (haven't checked loop services but I think . A significant number of 190X services seem to operate as standalone trips, i.e. bus leaves depot, goes to Wynyard, runs to Avalon and returns to depot (vice versa for the AM peak). For KDNB, range might be a bit of an issue for trips on Route 144 where buses often operate multiple trips per shift (a return trip on the 144 is ~34 km long).

As for other artic routes, vehicles on Busways North West routes 288 (20 km) and 292 (24 km) can operate four trips (2 return trips), maybe more - a total of 96 km in route service for the 292 (not including deadrunning to/from depot). Keeping in mind that quoted vehicle range is often for non-stop operation, so such a shift would be really pushing the boundaries range wise.

190 X
- 65 to 80 min service
- Starts at 5:55 am, last 8:30am, 10 all up roughly 15 min apart with some eariler and later 30 min apart
- So technically yes a few buses could do a double service but no idea where the indiviual buses go on arrival to the city.
- Assume they do two loops and return to depo, still only 150 km.

Not sure of the drivers get a break in the city (personal opnion that should be an option after 70 - 80 min to have a pee knowing its another hour to get back, but surely must have a reasonable break at Avalon, not hard to do so while on a fast charger.

Likewise all routes where the driver is out for more than 2h at a time must have timetabled rest stops for the driver to have a toilet break and bite to eat.

[Myrtone]

I think in China where the trolley system exists, they obvious make use of that. But where there isn't, they install stationary charging which I've seen in some locations such as large bus stops.

There are a few exceptions to the latter, like Prague, but they are all on mainland Europe. But outside mainland Europe, battery-only buses are indeed the default where there is not already trolleybus wiring.

[rtt_rules]

I think in China where the trolley system exists, they obvious make use of that. But where there isn't, they install stationary charging which I've seen in some locations such as large bus stops.

There are a few exceptions to the latter, like Prague, but they are all on mainland Europe. But outside mainland Europe, battery-only buses are indeed the default where there is not already trolleybus wiring.

Yep, if I was to build a green field non fuel bus network in Australia, I wouldn't be stringing up OH wires. Simply use BEV buses, mini, std rigid and banana and double banana, install charging infrastructure at all the key terminii and locations of extended waiting periods.

For the few long routes where the current BEV technology is lacking, then its HEV, likely using LNP / LPG engines with battery and electric drive system.

[tonyp]

Yep, if I was to build a green field non fuel bus network in Australia, I wouldn't be stringing up OH wires. Simply use BEV buses, mini, std rigid and banana and double banana, install charging infrastructure at all the key terminii and locations of extended waiting periods.

For the few long routes where the current BEV technology is lacking, then its HEV, likely using LNP / LPG engines with battery and electric drive system.

That's fine as long as your state governments are prepared to build and extend the tram and metro networks necessary to do the heavy lifting work that's beyond the capabilities of a battery bus system.

[rtt_rules]

That's fine as long as your state governments are prepared to build and extend the tram and metro networks necessary to do the heavy lifting work that's beyond the capabilities of a battery bus system.

We know that on some corridors that had there been a legacy railway (or tramway for Melbourne) in operation there wouldn't be a busway or high frequency bus route today.

However there is no reasonable reason that BEV buses cannot take over the majority of bus routes.