Sydney Metro - Tallawong to Bankstown

[Transtopic]

The success of the metro is down to the fact that it was built, not because it was built as a metro. Had it been built as an extension of the Sydney Trains network, it would still be far superior to the legacy network and people would still be raving about it, even though it would have been ultimately slower.

That's not what I heard from the area. They were fully aware that they were getting a better service than the suburban system. It wouldn't have been superior to the Sydney Trains system because it would have merged into the latter in the northern suburbs and then subjected to the same disruptions, stoppages and unreliability as the rest of the system. You would have heard nothing but moaning from NW commuters by now, but with the metro there's been nothing but praise. People are really over the suburban system, but quite a few enthusiasts don't get it. At least with the Bankstown line taken out, it might hopefully start to function a bit better.

That's a load of BS and you know it. The metro is certainly a great improvement over the existing Sydney Trains network, considering how much the latter has been starved of adequate funding by successive governments over the decades, but a similar level of service could have been provided if the government had adopted an earlier proposal to progressively convert sections of the ST network to compatible SD operation to ETCS Level 2 automation as shown below.



It wouldn't be driverless, but so what? It would have the same benefits as the current metro, with the same SD trains, new stations, platform screen doors, similar frequencies and reduced journey times. The major benefit would be that there wouldn't be the expense and disruption in converting the existing lines to driverless operation such as we're about to experience on the Bankstown Line, which requires a higher level of segregation on the surface lines compared with having a driver/observer. That is no doubt a contributing factor to the delay in converting the Bankstown Line to driverless operation. That still has to be played out.

It would also provide far more relief to the broader rail network via the new CBD and cross harbour rail link than the single line metro.

This is an extract from the Sydney Rail Futures report under the previous LNP government.

C) Independent Option
• Delivery of a dedicated metro system,
independent from the existing Sydney rail
network, including a new Harbour Crossing and
CBD line.
• The Independent Option would deliver the
benefits of rapid transit services to customers
only on new lines. It does not deliver significant
benefits to the wider rail network.
• In the Sydney context an independent metro
system would deliver few benefits in terms of
service enhancement, capacity improvements
or better operating efficiency on the existing rail
network. A dedicated metro-style system would
not maximise the use of the existing rail assets.
It would create a separate system that would
divert funding away from service improvements
on the existing rail network and only provide
benefits to customers who use the new lines

However, they chose to ignore it for ideological reasons and we're the poorer for it.

[Merc1107]

The busted arse Perth network was coming from such a low base, that any comparisons with Sydney are meaningless.

Nonsense. It shows what happens when a network is neglected in the long term, and what happens when common sense improvements are delivered consistently - and at this point, that has been ongoing for some 25-30 years.

The current trend of breaking patronage records set well before COVID is evidence of years of work invested in the network (and population growth).

Several other Australian cities could learn a thing or two from delivering steady improvements over the long run.

[tonyp]

That's a load of BS and you know it. The metro is certainly a great improvement over the existing Sydney Trains network, considering how much the latter has been starved of adequate funding by successive governments over the decades, but a similar level of service could have been provided if the government had adopted an earlier proposal to progressively convert sections of the ST network to compatible SD operation to ETCS Level 2 automation as shown below.

It wouldn't be driverless, but so what? It would have the same benefits as the current metro, with the same SD trains, new stations, platform screen doors, similar frequencies and reduced journey times. The major benefit would be that there wouldn't be the expense and disruption in converting the existing lines to driverless operation such as we're about to experience on the Bankstown Line, which requires a higher level of segregation on the surface lines compared with having a driver/observer. That is no doubt a contributing factor to the delay in converting the Bankstown Line to driverless operation. That still has to be played out.

It would also provide far more relief to the broader rail network via the new CBD and cross harbour rail link than the single line metro.

This is an extract from the Sydney Rail Futures report under the previous LNP government.

C) Independent Option
• Delivery of a dedicated metro system,
independent from the existing Sydney rail
network, including a new Harbour Crossing and
CBD line.
• The Independent Option would deliver the
benefits of rapid transit services to customers
only on new lines. It does not deliver significant
benefits to the wider rail network.
• In the Sydney context an independent metro
system would deliver few benefits in terms of
service enhancement, capacity improvements
or better operating efficiency on the existing rail
network. A dedicated metro-style system would
not maximise the use of the existing rail assets.
It would create a separate system that would
divert funding away from service improvements
on the existing rail network and only provide
benefits to customers who use the new lines

However, they chose to ignore it for ideological reasons and we're the poorer for it.

The commuting public doesn't seem to be getting your message.

[Aurora]

only provide benefits to customers who use the new lines

That is not true. Many heavy rail stations near new Metro stations have experienced a double-digit drop in passenger numbers, therefore providing ample capacity for population growth moving forward and relief for existing overcrowding in the peaks. The Metro now also provides a proper alternative during significant disruption when trains are unable to run between Central and North Sydney/Chatswood. Buses do not cut it all that well, whereas during particular incidents, like the industrial action, which will start ramping up from this month, operation of the Metro will not be affected by that.

Not a one-way street that some are indicating.

[BAMBAM]

only provide benefits to customers who use the new lines

That is not true. Many heavy rail stations near new Metro stations have experienced a double-digit drop in passenger numbers, therefore providing ample capacity for population growth moving forward and relief for existing overcrowding in the peaks. The Metro now also provides a proper alternative during significant disruption when trains are unable to run between Central and North Sydney/Chatswood. Buses do not cut it all that well, whereas during particular incidents, like the industrial action, which will start ramping up from this month, operation of the Metro will not be affected by that.

Not a one-way street that some are indicating.

Everything you said can happen on metro side too. Trackwork at metro happens, metro can also have industrial action.

[tonyp]

That is not true. Many heavy rail stations near new Metro stations have experienced a double-digit drop in passenger numbers, therefore providing ample capacity for population growth moving forward and relief for existing overcrowding in the peaks. The Metro now also provides a proper alternative during significant disruption when trains are unable to run between Central and North Sydney/Chatswood. Buses do not cut it all that well, whereas during particular incidents, like the industrial action, which will start ramping up from this month, operation of the Metro will not be affected by that.

Not a one-way street that some are indicating.

Everything you said can happen on metro side too. Trackwork at metro happens, metro can also have industrial action.

The level of disruption is smaller than for the suburban system, the likelihood of industrial action much smaller and the ability to recover infinitely greater.

[Transtopic]

The commuting public doesn't seem to be getting your message.

The commuting public wouldn't care whether the metro was delivered with or without a driver if they received the same level of service. In the case of the driver model, which would be compatible SD (not DD), the only difference would be that the driver opens and closes the doors and starts the train, which then operates automatically until it stops at the next station similar to the driverless train. It would operate in its own sector without mixing with other rail services, although it could still run alongside them on the legacy network without the extra isolation needed for driverless operation. The long term plan is for all remaining DD services on the legacy network to operate automatically with the ETCS Level 2 automated system anyway. ATP across the whole network has already been completed as the first stage.

When you look at the driverless metro system in isolation, then it's obviously superior, and you can understand its attraction. But that wasn't the premise for building a new CBD and cross harbour rail link, which was to relieve congestion on the existing network through the CBD, particularly on the south side of the harbour.

Great play has been made about how the metro line as constructed will relieve congestion on the City Circle by removing the T3 Bankstown Line services and freeing up paths for other Sydney Trains services. But that's only half the truth. In fact it will only remove a net 6tph x T3 services, with the remaining 4tph x T3 services from Liverpool continuing to the City Circle via Regents Park and the Inner West Line instead of via the Bankstown Line.

If the compatible differentiated services model had been adopted, with a separate automated SD sector as shown in my earlier post, then it would have provided far more benefits to the broader rail network. Excluding the Hurstville SD branch, where it appears likely that it will become an integral part of a separate T4 compatible SD automated sector with the Tangara fleet replacement, conversion of the whole of T3 from Bankstown to Liverpool and Lidcombe in addition to conversion of the T8 Revesby services to SD via the new CBD link, would have removed 14tph from the City Circle for the benefit of other ST services, particularly the longer distance DD T8 and T2 services, which was the objective in the first place.

At the same time, more commuters would also have benefited from an enhanced metro style service, rather than those limited to the single metro line.

There were always going to be issues with integrating a driverless metro system with a legacy surface rail network, which has now become apparent, as if it hadn't been earlier in the process, but ignored. The smarter legacy rail systems have adopted the ETCS Level 2 automated model, such as London's Crossrail, which is proposed for the broader Sydney Trains network. That doesn't preclude a fully driverless system for new completely segregated metro lines, such as Metro West and the proposed cross suburban rail links.

[Swift]

Sydney Metro yet to introduce this feature.
https://youtube.com/shorts/628SJvMAJJU? ... CAajde737z

[boronia]

From Transport Heritage:

Next weekend, be part of history with one of the last heritage train rides along the T3 Bankstown Line ahead of its transformation to Metro.

Choose your experience: travel behind 122-year-old NSW Government Railways Steam Locomotive 3265, or take a ride onboard one of Sydney's vintage electric trains, Red Set F1.

Plus, don't miss your seat aboard the very last heavy rail passenger journey along the full length of the T3 Bankstown Line!

Tickets are not available for purchase on the day, and seats are limited, so book now before they sell out!

[Swift]

Can I avoid running into other transport enthusiasts and just enjoy it in peace?

[1whoknows]

Took my first ride on the new Metro section yesterday. All very impressive but gee they keep the aircon a bit cool.

[Engineering]

Changing metro frequency at short notice for extraordinary circumstances?

With major disruptions to regular Sydney trains this morning that are likely to last the entire day, plus the official advice from the various Sydney Trains twitter feeds to "consider catching metro", what is the likelihood that the powers that be extend the 4 min AM peak frequency to all day today (rather than the current 7 min shoulder between 10 and 3)?

Sadly, I think I know the answer already.

[1whoknows]

Was riding in the morning after the peak and it was at 7 mins.

[tonyp]

Changing metro frequency at short notice for extraordinary circumstances?

With major disruptions to regular Sydney trains this morning that are likely to last the entire day, plus the official advice from the various Sydney Trains twitter feeds to "consider catching metro", what is the likelihood that the powers that be extend the 4 min AM peak frequency to all day today (rather than the current 7 min shoulder between 10 and 3)?

Sadly, I think I know the answer already.

The frequencies are under contract. Metro can readily increase them as long as TfNSW pays them for doing so.

[Swift]

Changing metro frequency at short notice for extraordinary circumstances?

With major disruptions to regular Sydney trains this morning that are likely to last the entire day, plus the official advice from the various Sydney Trains twitter feeds to "consider catching metro", what is the likelihood that the powers that be extend the 4 min AM peak frequency to all day today (rather than the current 7 min shoulder between 10 and 3)?

Sadly, I think I know the answer already.

Was riding in the morning after the peak and it was at 7 mins.

As the late Stan Zumanek would say, two chances. None and Buckleys. It is the loser state after all.

[boronia]

Changing metro frequency at short notice for extraordinary circumstances?

With major disruptions to regular Sydney trains this morning that are likely to last the entire day, plus the official advice from the various Sydney Trains twitter feeds to "consider catching metro", what is the likelihood that the powers that be extend the 4 min AM peak frequency to all day today (rather than the current 7 min shoulder between 10 and 3)?

Sadly, I think I know the answer already.

The frequencies are under contract. Metro can readily increase them as long as TfNSW pays them for doing so.

I would expect that the computer program for operations would be set up for the whole day. It would not be something that could be changed at short notice?

[alleve]

The frequencies are under contract. Metro can readily increase them as long as TfNSW pays them for doing so.

I would expect that the computer program for operations would be set up for the whole day. It would not be something that could be changed at short notice?

It would have to be something that could be changed at short notice. They would be screwed in any emergency if not

[Swift]

Backspace 7 and type 4.

[rtt_rules]

Anyone have a visual on what has been happening at Chatswood since the Metro city extension opened?

Is there much movement from Metro -> DD or DD -> Metro ?

Likewise, Sydenham

Also change in loading of DD's south of Chatswood and / or Epping, has this changed much?

TIA

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

I've been to Sydenham about four times during the PM peak since the Metro extension opened and I've observed that the station is mostly deserted. On Platform 1 the Metro staff outnumber commuters by a factor of 2:1 and sometimes more.

I am a much more frequent visitor to Chatswood and prior to the extension to the City and beyond a lot of cross-platform transfers occurred between the T1 and T9 outbound to the Metro - now however Platform 3 at Chatswood no longer plays host to massive cross platform exoduses and the DDs are loaded much more lightly than before. Some cross platform transfers do occur on Platform 2 where commuters from the North change to the Metro for a faster trip to the City although I have never done so as I prefer the comfort of the double decker Waratahs.

[Transtopic]

I've been to Sydenham about four times during the PM peak since the Metro extension opened and I've observed that the station is mostly deserted. On Platform 1 the Metro staff outnumber commuters by a factor of 2:1 and sometimes more.

I am a much more frequent visitor to Chatswood and prior to the extension to the City and beyond a lot of cross-platform transfers occurred between the T1 and T9 outbound to the Metro - now however Platform 3 at Chatswood no longer plays host to massive cross platform exoduses and the DDs are loaded much more lightly than before. Some cross platform transfers do occur on Platform 2 where commuters from the North change to the Metro for a faster trip to the City although I have never done so as I prefer the comfort of the double decker Waratahs.

Your observation highlights the absurdity of all the media hyperbole about the metro being the greatest thing since Einstein's Theory. Jo Haylen's gushing is even more galling considering her previous attitude.

I don't deny it's a welcome addition to Sydney's rail network as it's a new line with advanced technology, but would the reaction be any different if it had been constructed as part of the existing network with compatible automated SD trains, which had been previously proposed? Apart from the metro purists, the travelling public wouldn't care less whether it had a driver or not if they had the same level of service.

Obviously, there will be less patronage on the NSL between Chatswood and the CBD, as those who previously interchanged from Metro Northwest can now travel direct and vice versa in the evening peak. This had always been the objective of a new CBD and cross harbour rail link, whether part of the existing network or a segregated metro line. A more relevant statistic would be how many commuters on the Upper NSL interchange to and from the metro at Chatswood.

It's a bit early yet to determine long term travel patterns on the basis of the current patronage levels on the metro, as there are no doubt a significant number who are trying it out as it's new. It will take time for commuters to work out what is the best option depending on their ultimate destination. It shouldn't be assumed that commuters from the North West or Upper NSL will automatically continue on or interchange to the metro because it's faster. There will still be those who continue on the NSL or interchange from the metro at Chatswood to destinations like St Leonards, North Sydney, Milsons Point and Wynyard because it's more convenient without a long walk, even though the train journey might take longer. A bit of realism without all the hype wouldn't go amiss here.

The same goes for the presumed interchange numbers for T4 and T8 to and from the metro at Sydenham, as it's not exactly seamless with having to walk up and down platforms, particularly between platforms 5 & 6 and platforms 1 & 2 for T4 interchange. All T8 services will run via the Airport Line anyway, missing Sydenham.

[Merc1107]

It's a bit early yet to determine long term travel patterns on the basis of the current patronage levels on the metro, as there are no doubt a significant number who are trying it out as it's new. It will take time for commuters to work out what is the best option depending on their ultimate destination.

How long do you suppose people are really going to spend "trying it out"? They'll either use the Metro, or they won't.

[Transtopic]

It's a bit early yet to determine long term travel patterns on the basis of the current patronage levels on the metro, as there are no doubt a significant number who are trying it out as it's new. It will take time for commuters to work out what is the best option depending on their ultimate destination.

How long do you suppose people are really going to spend "trying it out"? They'll either use the Metro, or they won't.

That remains to be seen doesn't it. Too early to tell after barely a month.

As an example, my wife and two friends took the metro to Sydenham last weekend and thought it was terrific. However, they are unlikely to use it again on a regular basis as they are retired.

[Swift]

Terrific and wonderful are a terribly abused word used all too flippantly to be taken as a credible indication.

[Engineering]

According to TripView, daytime (10-3) metro frequency improves from 7 min to 5 min from Mon 16 Sept.

The early 10.30 pm finish of Sydenham to Chatswood on Mon to Thur is no longer, with full length services till close.

post evening peak after 730 on weeknights is still 10 min frequency. That ought to be improved IMHO.