NSW Electric Bus Plan

[ScaniaGrenda]

There is a new Electric sitting on a wharf in Auckland, is painted NSW Blue & White,stickered in yellow A new electric bus for?
On the Desto is Cessnock,Maitland,Nelson Bay,Newcastle,Scone.
The Security Guard on the wharf has been playing with the desto and flatten the battery,so it will now Port Kembla,as there is a charging Point,on the wharf,or just off the wharf,instead of Sydney or Newcastle

Interesting although something's leading me to believe that those destination displays serve as nothing more than place holders but the small fact that it does list all the Major towns in the Hunter Region is another thing; I'll speculate who it could possibly go too if those displays actually do allude to something;

Cessnock & Maitland, only two operators around here have routes running through Cessnock and Maitland, Rover & Hunter Valley Buses, I think Comfort Del Gro is already set with Volvo BZL's at some stage so I don't believe they'll pick up any (Not even sure if Thornton Depot has E-Chargers yet) Rover is small ish company and hasn't publicly made any announcements to their movement of electric buses nor am I aware of them demoing one yet, more than likely to go to them compared to HVB.

Nelson Bay, well that'll be Port Stephens Coaches, I'd imagine their already well equipped with electric chargers given I have seen them previously demonstrate a Yutong E12 early last year and they've got their Hybrids. I'd hope the range on this bus would be well up for doing 130's to Nelson Bay & Newcastle.

Newcastle - Unlikely to be Newcastle Transport as they've already settled on Bustechs ZDI's for the time being.

Scone ??? Whoever the small town operator is up in Scone I suppose but that's way outside the TNSW Footprint so wouldn't exactly need to be in TNSW Livery in the first place.

As always, I'm curious what this leads too and given you mentioned it was last sitting on a Wharf, export to here can't be too far off the table.

[Campbelltown busboy]

Singapore, another RHD jurisdiction, is rapidly stealing the march on us. Volvo has adapted its BZL chassis as a RHD three-door, low-floor bus for their market. It involved some serious rearrangement of components at the rear of the bus to achieve this, so it's obvious they will adapt if there's a market for it. This one is a candidate for the Perth CATs and (if only we had all-door loading) the Gong Shuttle. Maybe other Australian city shuttle loops too.

https://landtransportguru.net/volvo-bzl ... ent-152658

The only things I don't like is the rear door being not wide enough and the rear aisle far too narrow. On the other hand, the plug doors are excellent. More buses should be using them.

Tower Transit is a Transit Systems subsidiary. Perhaps this will filter back to the Australian operations?

The European manufacturers mostly build for the left hand drive markets so drivetrain conversion and other chassis modifications are needed for buses to be ready for the right hand drive markets

[tonyp]

The European manufacturers mostly build for the left hand drive markets so drivetrain conversion and other chassis modifications are needed for buses to be ready for the right hand drive markets, just shoved

There is another European electric already in Singapore, a Linkker. Volvo has left the drivetrain on the left-hand side, but shoved it as far forward against the rear wheel arch as possible. As a result, there's not quite enough space for a double-leaf door at the back and they've used a wide single-leaf. The narrow aisle at the back with a twist in it seems to be the result of making space for two motors side by side, which they offer as an option. I don't find Volvo's solutions very elegant and I suspect that's down to lack of experience with this type of bus. The best European examples come from the likes of Iveco and Solaris - and Custom Denning and Zemtec are inspired very much by the latter. The Germans and Swedes seem to go more for narrow trench aisles, rather than more spacious flat floors.

I suspect that the difficulty with moving the drivetrain over to the right-hand side with RHD conversions is that ZF is only making a LHD rear axle, with the diff on the left-hand side. If the demand for RHD low-floor buses grows, then ZF might have a viable market for a RHD drive axle. I think a couple of larger RHD markets, like Australia and Japan, would have to join with Singapore for that to happen.

[idontknow556]

I noticed a vehicle tracking as a Mercedes 0405NH CC550 on route 12 which is operated by Newcastle transport. Is that one of the ZDIs?

[ScaniaGrenda]

I kept an eye on real time trackers to see if our "Hino" (Cough ZDI) Bustech @ Newcastle Transport would appear out on a weekend run, checked around 8 & 10 AM and again around midday and didn't see it appear on any real time trip tracking so at this stage, possibly weekday use only.

[moa999]

Anytrip still generally only showing one Element out of TJH W compared to fleet of 10.
Is this correct? Or is the electric filter just not capturing all the vehicles.

[tonyp]

Anytrip still generally only showing one Element out of TJH W compared to fleet of 10.
Is this correct? Or is the electric filter just not capturing all the vehicles.

I think there's either something wrong with the electric filter or many buses are misidentified, because less than half of the electric buses from any Sydney operator are shown in operation on any day. Or is this normal across any type of bus? I've seen up to three Elements on Anytrip running at one time in the east but no more. Even less than half of Transit Systems' large fleet is shown on the road at any time.

[J_Busworth]

There are a number of issues related to the electric buses, which is leading to the low numbers of them on the road on any given day.

At Waverley, I am lead to believe that only 4 of the 10 Elements are actually currently in service, and they are only used when Waverley runs out of other buses. It is very likely that there is genuinely only one Element out at any given time.

At Leichhardt, there have been ongoing issues related to charging. If they charge too many of their electric buses at the same time, there are issues that occur with the local power grid. This has led to reduced usage of the electric fleet, including no electrics on weekends for much of the past year (they now appear to be in limited use on weekends).

[Linto63]

Has been discussed before, transponders are recycled from withdrawn buses but the vehicle type not always updated on whatever database Anytrip is pulling its information, hence on the ground observations often differ. Therefore Anytrip should not be taken as a 100% accurate view of what is happening.

[moa999]

At Waverley, I am lead to believe that only 4 of the 10 Elements are actually currently in service, and they are only used when Waverley runs out of other buses.

Wow. Any idea why the majority are out of service.
Or the reluctance to use them?

[BAMBAM]

Even Transdev Mt Kuring-Kai have problems trying to get a full charge for their Volgren.

PBC has troubles too with their Gemilang, only be restricted to charge 2 at the same time.

I wonder how both Busways and Busabout going with theres?

[tonyp]

Even Transdev Mt Kuring-Kai have problems trying to get a full charge for their Volgren.

PBC has troubles too with their Gemilang, only be restricted to charge 2 at the same time.

I wonder how both Busways and Busabout going with theres?

Busways never has more than three out at a time (unless there are more that are wrongly identified), so presumably the same issue. You can't place more demand on a grid that is becoming less reliable. This was predictable, but we're riding a political wave that seemingly can't be slowed.

I did speak to somebody from Custom Denning about this a little while ago. They've had no negative feedback or issues raised about the buses themselves by those operators. Similarly Busabout never seems to have more than half the fleet out. The significance of grid issues and depot infrastructure was raised in the early electric bus studies, so they're now discovering that this is going to influence the rate of uptake as much as the actual ability to acquire buses. Of course, the grid and its priorities are in the hands of others outside the NSW public transport sector. Apart from what can be gained by negotiation (and sums of money), it's in the lap of the gods, so to speak.

[Merc1107]

It sounds like what's happening with electric buses is akin to diving into a pool of water you don't know the depth of.

Was the Government so naive that they thought "no more diesel (or gas) buses" would just work, that there would be no issues supplying that much power? For years very hot or cold weather has caused blackouts; to add a growing electric fleet to such a grid seems quite foolish.

This sort of problem, plus the weight/capacity issue, makes me wonder if fuel cell buses (or even buses run on synthetic fuels) are as dead at the starting gate as some might have you believe.

[Linto63]

Was the Government so naive that they thought "no more diesel (or gas) buses" would just work, that there would be no issues supplying that much power?

The genesis lay in an announcement made by transport minister Andrew Constance in 2020 that the government wanted to replace all of NSW's diesel fleet by 2030. Evidently he didn't consult with his department (or did and received bad advice), but this led to the decision to purchase no more diesels for Sydney, even though at that stage there was no clear roadmap as to how EVs and the necessary infrastructure would be rolled out.

For years very hot or cold weather has caused blackouts; to add a growing electric fleet to such a grid seems quite foolish.

The problem as I understand, is not so much extra pressure on the grid overall, as this is being continously expanded anyway, but more of a localised one, e.g. the inability of the existing infrastructure to get the amount of electricity required to the front gate of depots.

This sort of problem, plus the weight/capacity issue, makes me wonder if fuel cell buses (or even buses run on synthetic fuels) are as dead at the starting gate as some might have you believe.

While it will have challenges, and there have been some unrealistic deadlines set, unlikely we are going to go back to diesels.

[alleve]

And doesn't Busways also have more Elements on the way for Penrith as well as some for Region 7?

I am also curious about this and if anyone has a timeline on the introduction of the Transit Systems Custom Elements. I thought Busways had more of an interest in Gemilang bodied BYDs (hence the trial in Penrith)

[tonyp]

I am also curious about this and if anyone has a timeline on the introduction of the Transit Systems Custom Elements. I thought Busways had more of an interest in Gemilang bodied BYDs (hence the trial in Penrith)

On the electric bus thread there is a discussion that power supply issues may have a bearing on the relatively low level of deployment of electric buses at the moment.

I think that Busways, like any other operator, is interested in comparative evaluation of different electric buses against each other, to confirm that they're on the best path for ordering more of any particular brand.

[alleve]

I am also curious about this and if anyone has a timeline on the introduction of the Transit Systems Custom Elements. I thought Busways had more of an interest in Gemilang bodied BYDs (hence the trial in Penrith)

On the electric bus thread there is a discussion that power supply issues may have a bearing on the relatively low level of deployment of electric buses at the moment.

I saw. Despite the issues with deploying electric buses, Transit Systems still ordered 79 Custom Elements, so they must have some faith that the Government will do something about the issues with the grid.

[Merc1107]

While it will have challenges, and there have been some unrealistic deadlines set, unlikely we are going to go back to diesels.

I said fuel cell or synthetic fuel, no reference to conventional diesels.

Despite the issues with deploying electric buses, Transit Systems still ordered 79 Custom Elements, so they must have some faith that the Government will do something about the issues with the grid.

Do they have any choice in the present climate? Better to have a plan in action than to sit and wait for the problem to go away, and be caught out having to procure a fleet in a hurry.

[Linto63]

Do they have any choice in the present climate?

While both major political parties of latched onto the Australian made band wagon, that a BYD is being trialled by Busways suggests they do not feel they are out of the running for future orders.

Better to have a plan in action than to sit and wait for the problem to go away, and be caught out having to procure a fleet in a hurry.

As to which operators get EVs en masse is driven by TfNSW's depot modification project, so the timing is out of the operators hands.

[alleve]

Do they have any choice in the present climate?

While both major political parties of latched onto the Australian made band wagon, that a BYD is being trialled by Busways suggests they do not feel they are out of the running for future orders.

Aren't Gemilangs manufactured here? If not, no reason why Busways couldn't buy Volgren bodied BYDs.

[Merc1107]

While both major political parties of latched onto the Australian made band wagon, that a BYD is being trialled by Busways suggests they do not feel they are out of the running for future orders.

That's not what I meant at all. If the only buses allowed to be purchased are electric, then what choice do the operators have but to do that?

Even if the infrastructure isn't ready, they've at least got buses when those issues are eventually resolved, versus waiting for that to be overcome before placing an order and invariably falling even further behind on fleet renewal.

[Linto63]

Purchasing buses only to have to store them is pointless, unless Bass Hill Bus Service or Harris Park Transport are about to make a comeback. Transit Systems' Custom Denning order was placed to more or less coincide with Kingsgrove depot being upgraded, which I understand will be completed imminently. We already have enough new transport infrastructure sitting around eating its head off.

[alleve]

So do we have any idea how many Elements are going to Kingsgrove? Fleet lists says 16 so far

[tonyp]

Just a casual observation - the sole electric bus running in Sydney at midnight tonight is an Element on 324.

[alleve]

Just a casual observation - the sole electric bus running in Sydney at midnight tonight is an Element on 324.

Having any electric buses running at midnight is rare