Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Certainly many Australian bus stops are poorly engineered, but it's never been a consideration in the widespread practice of allowing rear door exit. Boarding on the other hand is probably less of an issue because a potential passenger is in a position to appraise the condition of a bus stop before the bus arrives and if the ground isn't good enough to board by the rear door they will likely use the front door. They won't be taken by surprise about the bus stop condition like an arriving, exiting passenger (let me tell you sometime about exiting into a fence or a drainage ditch in the dark!).

What the union doesn't explain is why rear door boarding is any more dangerous than rear door exit. Many drivers have been overseeing both for years using only mirrors. The advent of CCTV in new buses has opened up excellent sightlines. There's little excuse any longer and NSW has rapidly become isolated among Australian jurisdictions in resisting such progress. Moreover it's a strongly instutionalised opposition and TWU NSW has obviously now closed ranks with the militant alliance of TfNSW and RTBU. I don't know what sort of people inhabit the top levels of the bus sector in NSW nowadays but with issues like this, buying buses with steps at the doors, disdain for hybrids and apparent irrational hatred of artics they seem determined that the largest bus jurisdiction in Australia doesn't intend to be a national exemplar anytime soon.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:Certainly many Australian bus stops are poorly engineered, but it's never been a consideration in the widespread practice of allowing rear door exit. Boarding on the other hand is probably less of an issue because a potential passenger is in a position to appraise the condition of a bus stop before the bus arrives and if the ground isn't good enough to board by the rear door they will likely use the front door. They won't be taken by surprise about the bus stop condition like an arriving, exiting passenger (let me tell you sometime about exiting into a fence or a drainage ditch in the dark!).

What the union doesn't explain is why rear door boarding is any more dangerous than rear door exit. Many drivers have been overseeing both for years using only mirrors. The advent of CCTV in new buses has opened up excellent sightlines. There's little excuse any longer and NSW has rapidly become isolated among Australian jurisdictions in resisting such progress. Moreover it's a strongly instutionalised opposition and TWU NSW has obviously now closed ranks with the militant alliance of TfNSW and RTBU. I don't know what sort of people inhabit the top levels of the bus sector in NSW nowadays but with issues like this, buying buses with steps at the doors, disdain for hybrids and apparent irrational hatred of artics they seem determined that the largest bus jurisdiction in Australia doesn't intend to be a national exemplar anytime soon.
The federal transport minister needs to get together with all state and territory transport ministers and the national bosses of the RBTU and TWU to sort out a national universal united standard agreement when it comes to all door loading
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:The federal transport minister needs to get together with all state and territory transport ministers and the national bosses of the RBTU and TWU to sort out a national universal united standard agreement when it comes to all door loading
That would probably only result in the unions waking up to their double standard and banning the use of rear doors nationally. It's in the average trade union DNA to gain leverage by impeding progress wherever they can.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Then just leave the unions out of the negotiations as that would be a better outcome
Stu
Posts: 4084
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Stu »

Q. Will there be rear door loading on buses?

The RTBU has met with the State Transit Authority and gone through the Risk Assessment process in regards to rear door loading in the current environment. That process has made it clear that there is no way for WHS to sign off on rear door loading, even with so few passengers. If people make the decision to rear door load and someone gets hurts, they are fully responsible and would be open to legal action. For this reason the Union does not encourage the practice.

https://tramandbusexpress.com.au/faqs-f ... -covid-19/
User avatar
ZIB-585
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:32 am
Favourite Vehicle: Mercedes Benz O305G
Location: Canberra (On route 40)

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by ZIB-585 »

I had a look at the media release to see *why* rear door boarding is "incredibly dangerous". Not surprisingly, there was no extra information.

Having TWU NSW say this is at odds with the practice of rear door boarding which is occurring in ACT (whose drivers belong to the same union).

If they want to be taken seriously, they need to explain exactly what the problem is and why such problems do not exist in Canberra and elsewhere.
Fully accredited Hino Poncho driver.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

There is a hint in the RTBU response that SafeWork NSW could have a role, which may explain differences from other jurisdictions, but I'm sceptical that that's all there is to it. For one thing, I'd imagine that WHS would be admininistered to nationally agreed standards and not differ between states and territories.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
In Transit
Posts: 280
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by In Transit »

Tony, I'd doubt it. That is most likely referring to STA's own safety department and/or committee. It's perfectly possible to conduct risk assessments to the same generic high level standard and come up with polar opposite results - depending on who is in the room, their own perspective and what outcomes they actually want. "Agreed standards" just provide a framework for a defensible outcome, not the answers.

Often Sydney's bus industry places absolutely no value on what is done elsewhere, regardless of topic. Plenty of examples of this - and the whole rear door saga over the last few decades is a classic. This would only continue a long tradition. The tragic part is that sometimes elsewhere in the country other agencies actually think Sydney is providing leadership.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

ZIB-585 wrote:I had a look at the media release to see *why* rear door boarding is "incredibly dangerous". Not surprisingly, there was no extra information.

Having TWU NSW say this is at odds with the practice of rear door boarding which is occurring in ACT (whose drivers belong to the same union).

If they want to be taken seriously, they need to explain exactly what the problem is and why such problems do not exist in Canberra and elsewhere.
I have put the question directly to the NSW branches of both unions, including reference to operations in other states in which their members work, and have left it a few days for replies to come in. RTBU says they won't operate rear doors for entry without door cameras. Given that a very small minority of STA buses would have door cameras, I'd give it about 30 years for that to come about. They made no comment on their Brisbane all-door loading operations. I'm sure that, likewise, most Brisbane buses wouldn't have door cameras.

TWU said they would come back to me and haven't.

I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation. It's obviously very easy to point the hypocrisy stick at them but they probably wouldn't care because their political battles are state-focussed. Not budging their position to protect their members from the Covid virus, when union branches in other states and territories have compromised, is pretty sick though.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
ZIB-585
Posts: 245
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:32 am
Favourite Vehicle: Mercedes Benz O305G
Location: Canberra (On route 40)

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by ZIB-585 »

tonyp wrote:
I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation.
Except that ACTION drivers also come under the NSW state branch.

(Also ACTION have just under half the fleet with rear door cameras.)

If TWU want to assert that "Sydney is different", then they should come out and say that, and make it clear what the differences are.
Fully accredited Hino Poncho driver.
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

ZIB-585 wrote:
tonyp wrote:
I'd say at a guess that each state branch operates in its own bubble and has no idea of what goes on in other states in respect of bus operation.
Except that ACTION drivers also come under the NSW state branch.

(Also ACTION have just under half the fleet with rear door cameras.)

If TWU want to assert that "Sydney is different", then they should come out and say that, and make it clear what the differences are.
The only issue between Sydney and Canberra when it comes to buses and rear door loading is the NSW branch of the RTBU most probably having a strangle hold on Transport For NSW
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

All this talk of rear-door boarding interstate. It seems like Transdev Melbourne is now officially doing rear-door only boarding, of course, many drivers have been doing it on own anyway in Melbourne. And remember that Transdev Melbourne has notorious issues yet decided that it was safe to this. I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11188
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

rogf24 wrote: I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359
Not under the authoritarian NSW system.
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
With the left in charge the future is doomed.
So sick of transit hobbyist's superior attitudes.
Many transit hobbyists are hateful @###holes.
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Swift wrote:
rogf24 wrote: I wonder if Transdev NSW will try this out on their services now?

https://twitter.com/Transdev_Melb/statu ... 2829156359
Not under the authoritarian NSW system.
Transport For NSW is run by the anti rear door loading NSW branch of the RTBU with help from the NSW government
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 21745
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Fleet Lists »

How does the NSW Government come into as opposed to Transport for NSW?
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote:How does the NSW Government come into as opposed to Transport for NSW?
By being too passive on the issue. Constance does have a tendency to take TfNSW's word for anything.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Daniel Bowen reports that all-door boarding is to be phased in on all Melbourne buses over the next 18 months. Fares will also go cashless permanently.

That means all-door loading is now practised substantially in Adelaide and Canberra and on specific services in Perth and Brisbane (and Melbourne to date). Metro Tasmania's total patronage for its three cities is less than that of the Sydney 333 so it would be safe to say that it really doesn't matter there. Patronage in Darwin is little more than that of the Gong Shuttle, so ditto. That leaves Sydney, Australia's largest bus operation.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1148
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

What's interesting is that PTV says that it's safer. https://twitter.com/ptv_official/status ... 5246458882
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:58 am What's interesting is that PTV says that it's safer. https://twitter.com/ptv_official/status ... 5246458882
Definitely safer for drivers:

https://rairfoundation.com/thousands-pr ... sks-watch/
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11188
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with back/centre door entry, it's just that drivers here have been brainwashed into viewing it as the ultimate sin. They've got a good array of mirrors together with cctv cameras nowadays.
Now with contactless payments, they can devote more concentration on monitoring both doors if they're not being used as an information booth.
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
With the left in charge the future is doomed.
So sick of transit hobbyist's superior attitudes.
Many transit hobbyists are hateful @###holes.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

The Americans seem to be rapidly becoming like the Europeans in their desire to get buses moving along better. This NACTO piece illustrates some of the thinking:

https://nacto.org/tsdg/better-boarding-better-buses/

The Design Guide is interesting:

https://nacto.org/publication/transit-s ... ign-guide/

and the boarding document is of course relevent here:

https://nacto.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... arding.pdf

The Australian bus transit sector is generally in a long sleep in this regard, with small bursts of bus priority activity here and there (like bus priority measures that invariably seem to eventually get negated by road agencies). The stirring of interest in all-door loading and cashless prepaid fares is encouraging and WA, SA, Victoria, ACT and Queensland are obviously in the lead in those areas. The sector in Tasmania and NT is too small for the issue to be significant. The NSW sector is the one most in need of such initiatives, but is also doubly cursed by obstructive unions that prevent any progress. How unlucky we are.

Out of interest I've often wondered, out of all the bus door fatalities over the years, how many have actually involved entering passengers as opposed to exiting passengers. All the events I recall have involved exiting passengers, yet there is no ban on exiting. Has anyone ever done a case survey?
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
J_Busworth
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L113TRB Ansair Orana
Location: On the X74, because it's faster than the tram
Contact:

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by J_Busworth »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:49 am Out of interest I've often wondered, out of all the bus door fatalities over the years, how many have actually involved entering passengers as opposed to exiting passengers. All the events I recall have involved exiting passengers, yet there is no ban on exiting. Has anyone ever done a case survey?
We don't want them to ban back doors altogether!
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA 14.5s 28/01/93 - 05/12/19
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11188
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

Tony's question highlights the absurdity of the union's position on door use. Why haven't they just gone and demanded single door buses?
Just like the Atlantean dispute saga, they haven't got a leg to stand on in continually resisting all door boarding and the benefits it brings.
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
With the left in charge the future is doomed.
So sick of transit hobbyist's superior attitudes.
Many transit hobbyists are hateful @###holes.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9850
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

If the unions aren't careful, case-based logic might suggest that it's OK to board buses but dangerous to exit them, which would present a significant societal dilemma. Fortunately, logic doesn't come into union logic.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Campbelltown busboy
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Tallewang wrote: Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:17 am One thing I can never understand when I travel on buses in the western suburbs, is the back door thing.

I most use buses in the eastern suburbs. Always exit the back door. I don't think I have ever got off the front door of a Sydney buses bus. Visiting the western suburbs, you can't get out the back door, and they seem to think it is strange to want to ! What the ! There must be at least one person, other than me, who has visited the western suburbs and tried to catch one of their buses. What's the deal with all that ?

It's going to be even worse, when they are all painted the same colour. I won't know whether to try the back door, or not.
A refusal or hesitation for bus drivers in the the western suburbs to use the rear door might be due to the high number of public housing estates or suburbs that only consist of government funded housing
Locked

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”