Next generation railcars for Transperth

Perth / Western Australia Transport Discussion

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tonyp
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

Bus Suggestions wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:42 pm I understand the same top speed as the B-Series, but I sure do hope they will have faster acceleration.
They would need more powered bogies for greater adhesion. Presumably though they have the same number of powered wheels as the Bs (66% adhesion)?

Do you guys think they should have longitudinal seating throughout to increase the total capacity a little? That fixed transverse seating would be hated in Sydney. There would be a rush for the forward-facing seats at every station! I find the seat pitch on the transverse seating in the Bs quite poor and prefer the longitudinal. But then I'm tall so I'm a harsh judge!
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:17 am Do you guys think they should have longitudinal seating throughout to increase the total capacity a little? That fixed transverse seating would be hated in Sydney. There would be a rush for the forward-facing seats at every station!
As these are to spend much of their working lives on the North-South corridor, I think the seating capacity does have to be there for passengers who make the trek into Perth each day from somewhere like Mandurah. It's important to cater for that need as a means of attracting patrons.

Without familiarity of scheduling railways, I wondered if perhaps the sets with the longitudinal seating could be primarily focused on the 'W' pattern shuttles between Cockburn and Whitfords? That would keep the high-capacity railcars along the inner section of the network where their capacity would be best-used, and the railcars with much higher seating capacity on the outer ends of the network where they would be most in-demand.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Mr OC Benz »

If the A-series and initial batches of the B-series which were delivered with transverse seating are anything to go by, I bet they will be considering converting the C-series to longitudinal seating at some stage if capacity starts to become constrained again. From memory, I'm pretty sure it is written into the contract that the seats must be fitted in a way that they can be easily converted to a different layout if required.

I think the fact that the seating capacity of the C-series will already be lower than a full longitudinal arrangement of the B-series has probably meant they're trying to mitigate the kind of backlash they may receive from the public. After all, it is a reduction in seating but supposedly a 25% increase in overall capacity, so the standing ratio will increase significantly. Probably also the same reason they dropped the idea of having four doors per side per carriage as initially planned.

I'm not sure Perth exhibits the same passenger behaviours as Sydney in regards to fixed transverse seating. Pre-pandemic I had always noticed that on Perth trains, tolerance to standing has also been higher and many passengers will prefer to stand even before all the seats have been occupied. I imagine the pandemic has probably entrenched this behaviour even further.
tonyp
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

Mr OC Benz wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:57 am
I'm not sure Perth exhibits the same passenger behaviours as Sydney in regards to fixed transverse seating. Pre-pandemic I had always noticed that on Perth trains, tolerance to standing has also been higher and many passengers will prefer to stand even before all the seats have been occupied. I imagine the pandemic has probably entrenched this behaviour even further.
That tolerance of standing is mirrored on the Sydney metro trains. I think it has a lot to do with the faster journey times. In my view the issue of standing is directly related to journey time. Regardless of distance, if the trip is fast, people are more amenable to standing.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by tonyp »

Bus Suggestions wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:42 pm I understand the same top speed as the B-Series, but I sure do hope they will have faster acceleration.
I just revisited Alan Cotton's paper on the implementation of the Perth "metro" system and I note that, to get a higher maximum speed without compromising acceleration, they replaced an unpowered bogie on a trailer car with a powered one (is this still the case?). This boosted what started as a 90 km/h train to a 110 km/h one without compromising acceleration/deceleration. I presume the same was done to get up to 130 km/h on the Bs but I don't have detail specifications. It is, however, common wisdom. The more powered bogies you have, the better the adhesion (which helps both acceleration and braking) and the better the power to weight ratio for performance.

https://www.cotma.org.au/documents/pert ... Cotton.pdf
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Zidanehartono »

Between April 3rd to 18th, a model of the upcoming C-series will be on display.

https://all-aboard.metronet.wa.gov.au/
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by TP1462 »

So new railcars comes new line maps

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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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TP1462 wrote:So new railcars comes new line maps

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Looks like the C”# pattern will be withdrawn seems as though PTA are going for service consistency even though there is logic behind it


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by sylar »

I note a small error, Warnbro Station is also a Bus Transfer station but this not indicated correctly on the model train line maps.

Is the Joondalup line eventually going to be renamed once it reaches Yanchep or will it always be known by it's traditional name ?
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

I think it's a bit hard to draw conclusions on a line's stopping pattern from a map on the train. All the other lines had semi-express patterns in the past and the maps onboard (thankfully) did not denote this.

Whether or not C patterns continue is a matter for the boffins to work out. A 5min time saving seems barely worth the bother when passengers much closer to town, in far denser areas, get a much poorer service as a result. There is also the matter of passengers for the 'lesser' stops having to change to or from the Armadale trains to complete their journeys, too.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by TP1462 »

sylar wrote:I note a small error, Warnbro Station is also a Bus Transfer station but this not indicated correctly on the model train line maps.

Is the Joondalup line eventually going to be renamed once it reaches Yanchep or will it always be known by it's traditional name ?
It’ll be called the Joondalup line because Joondalup is the major activity centre along the corridor even though it’s been extended 3 times and it causes the least amount of confusion same with the Airport Line even though it terminates at High Wycombe the Airport is the major activity centre and self explanatory point of reference that the teal line goes to the airport. The Thornlie line will also keep its title even though it’ll terminate at Cockburn Central it’s not uncommon for train lines to be named after a particular destination or major activity centre on that line rather than the terminus or some in cases a famous or notable person like the Queen Elizabeth line in Central London which is one of the more recent examples rather than Cross rail, Purple line or the Reading line. The Mernda line in Melbourne could be a notable exception even though it’s also been extended 3 times over from Epping to South Morang and now Mernda it’s officially titled the Mernda line rather than the Epping line


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by TP1462 »

Merc1107 wrote:I think it's a bit hard to draw conclusions on a line's stopping pattern from a map on the train. All the other lines had semi-express patterns in the past and the maps onboard (thankfully) did not denote this.

Whether or not C patterns continue is a matter for the boffins to work out. A 5min time saving seems barely worth the bother when passengers much closer to town, in far denser areas, get a much poorer service as a result. There is also the matter of passengers for the 'lesser' stops having to change to or from the Armadale trains to complete their journeys, too.
Even though the Armadale express patterns do have logic faster journey times will be ditched in favour of a more rationalised turn and up go metro service the only reason the C pattern exists is to reduce congestion at level crossings especially where Armadale & Thornlie trains cross at Wharf street and patronage has also increased significantly over the last decade or so since Thornlie came online and there was always a deficit of 4car systems on the Armadale line it’s likely once the inner Armadale line upgrade is complete Welshpool is demolished and Queens Park is moved closer to Hamilton street the C & B patterns will be withdrawn also when special events are scheduled at Optus the C pattern doesn’t run


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by bullswool »

Do you think this will mean the Thornlie line will get a 10 minutely service in peak? My understanding of the 15 minutely service was to give space in the timetable for the Armadale express trains.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Zidanehartono »

The new manufacturing facility in Midland is offically opened today this WA Day!
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Bus Suggestions »

A media statement was released regarding the above.
Media Statements WA wrote:McGowan Government returns railcar manufacturing to WA
Monday, 7 June 2021
  • McGowan Government delivers on major election commitment to return railcar manufacturing to Western Australia.
  • Construction on Bellevue METRONET Railcar Facility now complete and handed to operator Alstom Australia.
  • 246 METRONET railcars and six new Australind railcars will be built by more than 200 local workers.
  • First of nine METRONET projects now complete, with the program continuing to support thousands of local jobs.
Premier Mark McGowan and Transport Minister Rita Saffioti today officially opened the Bellevue METRONET Railcar Facility, marking WA Day with the return of railcar manufacturing to Western Australia.

A key McGowan Government election commitment, 246 METRONET railcars and six new Australind railcars will be built, tested and maintained at the new Bellevue facility.

More than 200 long-term jobs and hundreds of indirect jobs are anticipated to be created at the facility, which has been manufactured using 8,500 tonnes of locally fabricated steel.

By having the new railcars built in Bellevue, the McGowan Government is returning rail manufacturing to the Midland area for the first time since 1994 when the Midland Railway Workshops were closed by the then Liberal Government.

At least 50 per cent of the contract value will be delivered locally, in line with the McGowan Government's commitment to using local content.

With the facility now handed over to operator Alstom, the first of the McGowan Government's nine current METRONET projects is now complete.

A number of local suppliers have been awarded contracts on the project, supporting local jobs:
  • Australian company McConnell, which will establish a dedicated facility in WA to manufacture railcar passenger seats;
  • Aerison, a WA company with fabrication facility in Forrestfield, to provide cab structures, battery boxes and fuel tanks;
  • Knorr-Bremse, will supply air-conditioning and air supply equipment and brake components from its WA premises;
  • Pyrotek, will be supplying insulation and floor panels;
  • Austbreck, will be supplying pantographs from its Kewdale facility;
  • Hofmann Engineering will be delivering bogie frames from their existing WA premises;
  • Vector Lifting, based in Cockburn, delivering bogie turntables and lifting jacks;
  • Kulbardi, a WA indigenous company which supplied furniture for the facility;
  • Parker Hannifin, which will supply piping from their Welshpool facility;
  • Camco, based in Canning Vale, which provides jigs and fixtures for Bellevue;
  • Unique Metal, a Wangara sheet metal fabricator which will provide metallic components;
  • Dellner, will procure components from WA suppliers and assemble the couplers in Australia;
  • Chess Engineering, from Welshpool, which is assembling the fitting stations at the facility.
The $1.25 billion railcar contract, awarded to Alstom, is the biggest order of railcars in WA history and came in $347 million under budget.

Work on the new trains will commence later this year, with the first locally made train anticipated to roll onto the tracks in late 2022.

Comments attributed to Premier Mark McGowan:

"Today is WA Day, a celebration of everything we love about our great State.

"So it's timely that today we return railcar manufacturing to Western Australia.

"We always said that our METRONET trains would be built in WA, by local WA workers. We have delivered on that promise.

"With the opening of the Bellevue METRONET Railcar Facility, we have returned manufacturing to its home in Midland, after the original Midland Railway Workshops were closed by the then Liberal Government in 1994.

"This milestone marks the completion of the first of my Government's nine current METRONET projects, which are continuing to create thousands of local jobs in Western Australia."

Comments attributed to Transport Minister Rita Saffioti:

"I remember discussing returning railcar manufacturing to WA when we were in Opposition - I am so proud to stand here as the Minister for Transport and open our new Bellevue METRONET Railcar Facility.

"Over the next 10 years, 246 METRONET C-series railcars and six Australind diesel railcars will be built right here by local workers.

"Our decision to bring back railcar manufacturing to WA will create hundreds of ongoing WA jobs and secure a reliable supply chain of parts and equipment.

"Over 50 per cent of content will be sourced locally, including the seats and battery boxes, supporting local WA businesses.

"More than 200 local workers will be employed in this facility, which will also create traineeships and apprenticeships."

Comments attributed to Midland MLA Michelle Roberts:

"It was a sad day for Midland when the Court Liberal Government closed down the Midland Railway Workshops.

"The McGowan Government committed to returning manufacturing to its home in Midland and today we deliver on this promise.

"This is a great day for Midland and I can't wait to see these locally made trains rolling through our community again."
I'd post any important, bus-related links I had, but they're outdated anyways.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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First new C-series railcar built in WA now undergoing diagnostic testing before fit out
High Voltage Testing and Commissioning Facility at Bellevue now complete
Railcar manufacturing ramping up since returning to Midland area last year
More than 10,400 workers have been employed across METRONET program of works
15 METRONET projects under construction, completed, in procurement or planning
The first C-Series railcar built locally, under the McGowan Labor Government, at the METRONET Bellevue Railcar Manufacturing and Assembly Facility has rolled into the next stage of production and is undergoing testing at the newly completed High Voltage Testing and Commissioning Facility.

This is the first time a railcar has ever been tested in Western Australia, with the previous B-Series railcars bought from Queensland under the former Liberal-National Government, and deployed directly onto the network.

After passing a series of static diagnostic tests the railcar will get its final touches including installing seating, passenger information systems and external livery. Six-railcars will then be joined together to create the first train to roll onto the network later this year for nine months of intensive trials along the Mandurah and Joondalup lines.

This rigorous testing program ensures the future railcars can help move the more than 103,000 daily boardings on these lines as safely, efficiently and smoothly as possible.

The WA Railcar program is delivering 246 new C-Series Railcars and six new Australind rail cars over a 10 year contract with more than 130 workers currently employed at the Bellevue workshop.

The project is on track to deliver its 50 percent local content commitment with more than 15 WA businesses currently delivering new components for the railcars, including:
Aerison - providing cab structures, fuel tanks and battery boxes for the C-series from their Forrestfield Fabrication Facility;
Austbreck - supplying pantographs from their facility in Kewdale;
McConnell - established a dedicated facilitiy in WA to manufacture railcar passenger seats;
Parker Hannifin - supplying piping from their Welshpool facility;
Knorr Bremse Merak - supplying air conditioning units from their facilitiy in Welshpool;
Unique Metal - a Wangara sheet metal fabricator providing metallic components; and
Dellner - procuring components from WA suppliers to assemble couplers in Australia.
The facility's assembly line setup allows for different components to be installed as each railcar moves through five workstations. Windows, doors, floors, and ceilings are among the first to be installed on each railcar, followed by the underframe and roof equipment.

The Bellevue Depot will be expanded to include a new diesel maintenance facility, B-Series maintenance facility, bogie and railcar wash facilities, railcar wheel lathe and an extensive railcar stabling yard.

The McGowan Government's METRONET program is tracking along with 15 projects under construction, completed, in procurement or planning.

For the first time, it can be revealed more than 10,400 workers have been employed across all METRONET projects under delivery, with projects like Morley-Ellenbrook expected to ramp up over the remainder of this year and contracts additional projects to be signed later this year, creating thousands of additional jobs.

This includes more than 230 apprentices and trainees, with 51 per cent of total expenditure across the projects spent on WA businesses to date.

Comments attributed to Premier Mark McGowan:

"This is about railcars made by Western Australians, right here in WA.

"Congratulations to everyone who has been involved in this major achievement for WA.

"My Government is delivering on our commitment, to diversify our economy, return rail car manufacturing to WA, creating a pipeline of work and jobs for Western Australia.

"On behalf of WA, I am proud Western Australian workers are being recognised for their craft, ability and skills in manufacturing, which will be seen rolling off the production line and onto the network in due course."

Comments attributed to Transport Minister Rita Saffioti:

"We've brought back railcar manufacturing to WA for the first time since 1994, and we're delivering on our promise to build our trains in WA with local workers, creating greater capacity and capability locally.

"Another milestone has now been reached with the first 6 railcars now being built right here in WA to create our first C-Series train; they need to go under significant testing before they can take passengers, but this is a great achievement.

"The METRONET Bellevue Railcar Manufacturing Facility was the first METRONET project to be completed, and shortly we will be seeing the first completed train built in WA on our rail network.

"It is incredibly exciting to see this facility take shape and our brand new railcars being built in WA."

https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... ility.aspx


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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This was posted on twitter the interior of a partially built C series cab


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Meet 127 now fully complete

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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by Merc1107 »

As good as it is to see progress on this, I hope that the "Metronet" branding is not going to adorn every one of these bug-faced railcars.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Post by kaplan_thornhill »

And apparently 127 has already kissed a buffer fairly hard.... that's why you're only seeing one end.

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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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kaplan_thornhill wrote:And apparently 127 has already kissed a buffer fairly hard.... that's why you're only seeing one end.

KT
Gonna drive past Bellevue soon I’ll see if I can get a good look


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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TP1462 wrote:
kaplan_thornhill wrote:And apparently 127 has already kissed a buffer fairly hard.... that's why you're only seeing one end.

KT
Gonna drive past Bellevue soon I’ll see if I can get a good look


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No damage to report on 5127


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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Carriage numbers should
6127-7127-8128-9127-1027-1127 probably not in that exact order if I remember correctly we did see B end which had 1127 on it


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

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TP1462 wrote:Carriage numbers should
6127-7127-8128-9127-1027-1127 probably not in that exact order if I remember correctly we did see B end which had 1127 on it


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CEA6127- CEB1127 the centre carriages should be a mix of motor and trailer such as CEM and CET.


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