Cheap rollingstock dedicated to RRL

[mrmoopt]

With the H sets coming to the last legs of their lives soon,
A company in the UK is overhauling old tube stock to modern DMUs that rival the standards of H sets here in Victoria.

Do you think that VLine should order these for commuter routes to Tarneit, Bacchus Marsh and Stony Point?

Granted they don't have the top speed of H sets or Sprinters but is speed that much of a concern when you have a dedicated fleet?

An added plus is that they are al metal, resistant to corrosion and they have TPWS built in.

Have a look at their website here:

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/d-train-benefits/

[Alstom 888M]

No, I believe that for RRL a "suburban DMU" similar in concept to a 3000-class Adelaide railcar is the way to go for RRL. Speed (or at least superior acceleration) is very much a concern for these lines as a slow train will get in the way of Geelong and Ballarat services. Interior layout and doors should be suburban style, and the trains should have a max speed at least 130 and accelerate at least as fast as the Sprinters. Toilet facilities would not be provided (they are already closed and locked on Stony Point services). They would only run to Wyndham Vale, Bacchus Marsh, and Stony Point under normal circumstances as they would not be appropriate for long trips (i.e. they would offer similar comfort and amenity as Metros rolling stock.)

[krustyklo]

A company in the UK is overhauling old tube stock to modern DMUs that rival the standards of H sets here in Victoria.

Hmmm... the idea of converting suburban EMUs for use on diesel services has been done before in Victoria but I can't quite put my finger on where...</irony>

Speed (or at least superior acceleration) is very much a concern for these lines as a slow train will get in the way of Geelong and Ballarat services. Interior layout and doors should be suburban style, and the trains should have a max speed at least 130 and accelerate at least as fast as the Sprinters. Toilet facilities would not be provided (they are already closed and locked on Stony Point services). They would only run to Wyndham Vale, Bacchus Marsh, and Stony Point under normal circumstances as they would not be appropriate for long trips (i.e. they would offer similar comfort and amenity as Metros rolling stock.)

To be fair the Vivarail D-trains would meet these criteria I'm pretty sure. IIRC, the original traction motors were left (yep, it says so here: http://www.vivarail.co.uk/new-technolog ... n-package/), and Tube trains accelerate rather well I gather.

On the down side, the top speed is about 100 km/h (so too slow for RRL), the cost of shipping them out here would be a factor in their initial cost, carriage profile would undoubtably be an issue given UK trains are smaller than ours (yes, I am aware D stock is surface stock not sub-surface stock), it would be a non-standard fleet with a dependency on spares from overseas (keeping in mind we got rid of our most recent train before the Xtrap and Siemens because we couldn't manage procuring parts from the same country) and the political implications of acquiring a hand me down fleet from half way round the world might be an issue as well. So, good lateral thinking but probably not.

Is there a specific issue with H sets that mean they will need to be retired soon, or is it just "old train bad"? In which case, what is stopping us upgrading H sets to the supposedly high standard of the D train...

[Alex on the Bus]

Not necessarily an issue of "old train bad" but the H-set carriages are now 50-60 years old - the D-trains are less than 40 years old in comparison. Given the issues found with the former Z-set cars in recent years (which are of comparable age), and the perception that the H-sets are viewed unfavourably by passengers compared to the Vlocity, there would be some desire to get those trains replaced sooner rather than later.

As for what that replacement would be, who knows? At the moment the focus is on replacing the N-sets on InterCity duties - that may displace a couple of VLs from Echuca and Ararat duties, but wouldn't have a major flow-on effect. If the Metropolitan Network Development Plan is to be believed the next opportunity for replacing the H-sets would be the Long Distance High-Capacity fleet proposed for the Geelong line, tied in with the extension of electrification to Waurn Ponds, which would displace VLs to other regional lines.

[krustyklo]

Given the issues found with the former Z-set cars in recent years (which are of comparable age),

But is there a known issue with the H sets? Or with bogie design from that era bearing in mind the 2 train types served very different purposes? If there is no known issue, anything else is speculation. The only real issue of this type that would have a bearing on a decision is that H sets would have increased monitoring and maintenance costs to make sure there are no Z-set type issues. Given the relatively low amount of kms travelled given they are fundamentally used mainly in peak hours, I suspect this risk and extra cost is fairly low. Bear in mind the Z sets would have gone longer distances in a week and per journey than the peak hour use for H sets.

and the perception that the H-sets are viewed unfavourably by passengers compared to the Vlocity, there would be some desire to get those trains replaced sooner rather than later.

Any evidence for this perception? Most people would be happy to get a seat on a train without paying too much attention to what sort. In addition, I would have thought the general levels of comfort on a H set (carpet, padded seats, etc) were more customer friendly than the low maintenance Vlocity design (vinyl, less padded seats although comfortable enough).

And even if passenger amenity were a genuine issue, it would be far cheaper to refurbish to Vlocity standard than buy new Vlocities!

[Frosty]

I know but maybe a design for RRL could be something like the Hunter Rail Car in NSW it's based similarly to the OSCAR design of the Outer Suburban electric stock in NSW. Has high density reversible 3x2 seating very similar to a Vlocity.

[Newcastle Flyer]

Bit slow bringing these former District Line trains up!

They would only run to Wyndham Vale, Bacchus Marsh, and Stony Point under normal circumstances as they would not be appropriate for long trips (i.e. they would offer similar comfort and amenity as Metros rolling stock.)

Have a look at the D-Train site, they've altered them to have toilets, etc.

Do you think that VLine should order these for commuter routes to Tarneit, Bacchus Marsh and Stony Point?

NO, but since they look like they've had their interiors changed to suit possibly longer distances, then MAYBE.

Wonder if they'd fit the "half-size" built North West Metro, if they refit for EMU operation??!! ( - just kidding )

Granted they don't have the top speed of H sets or Sprinters but is speed that much of a concern when you have a dedicated fleet?

They maybe slower, but their not that slow.

Don't forget that they chose the District trains to become D-trains as they retired early, as they still have plenty of use in them yet.

[712M]

Electrification to Melton will most likely occur before H sets are phased out. This will see most, if not all Bacchus Marsh trains eliminated. I believe all H sets are rostered on Bacchus Marsh runs except for one return trip to Seymour.

[BroadGauge]

Electrification to Melton will most likely occur before H sets are phased out. This will see most, if not all Bacchus Marsh trains eliminated. I believe all H sets are rostered on Bacchus Marsh runs except for one return trip to Seymour.

There is usually 8 H set consists running in each peak, one being a 3-car set and the rest all 6-car, in the mornings all of these run in from Bacchus Marsh except one that comes from Seymour.

In the afternoon it's slightly different, there are four to Bacchus Marsh, two to Seymour and two to Wyndham Vale.

As someone who travels on H sets all the time, my opinion is that while they are less preferable to newer interurban trains, given that the services I use are pretty much just a diesel suburban train anyway, they're still preferable over the electric trains that run comparable services on other lines, so I don't really see the problem with them for what they're used for

[Heihachi_73]

they're still preferable over the electric trains that run comparable services on other lines, so I don't really see the problem with them for what they're used for

Well that's a given, the H sets have much nicer seats than a Comeng, an X'Trap and most certainly a Siemens. If the same seats were used in suburban trains they wouldn't last overnight.

[tranzitjim]

One more point about the D-trains, is the track gauge. They are standard gauge, we are broad gauge.


One option could be, replace the Sprinter fleet with more V/Locities on all but the Stony Pt line, and reuse the Sprinters for outer suburban services as described here.


In any case, EMUs will replace the H sets on Bacchus Marsh, and Whyndam vale line too one day.

[krustyklo]

One option could be, replace the Sprinter fleet with more V/Locities on all but the Stony Pt line, and reuse the Sprinters for outer suburban services as described here.

Why? I would have thought that the Sprinters largely only ran services on 115 km/h lines with Vlocities on 160 km/h lines to match vehicle capabilities to line capabilities?

The Sprinters are perfectly fine if that is what is happening. Last time I rode a Sprinter was from Geelong (was a while ago before RRL) and it was a reasonably comfortable journey, with the same amenities available as on a Vlocity. Replacing Sprinters with Vlocities would be pointless as they couldn't take advantage of the higher speed capability of a Vlocity on slower track, and Sprinters couldn't take advantage of the higher speed limits on the RRL sections of the network.

The main complaint I would have with replacing H sets with Sprinters on outer suburban services is that H sets have much more standing room. I'm pretty sure even Vlocities have more standing room than a Sprinter. Using Sprinters on peak hour outer suburban services would probably mean rearranging the seats to create more standing area. The Sprinters were effectively the Vlocity of the 1990s Vline railway and configured as such with the additional expectation of no patronage growth. If you're going to build more Vlocities, you might as well use those on outer suburban services on the RRL as they are better suited to those services in terms of matching train and line speed capability, as well as Vlocities having more suitable carriage configurations to enable standees.

[BroadGauge]

Why? I would have thought that the Sprinters largely only ran services on 115 km/h lines with Vlocities on 160 km/h lines to match vehicle capabilities to line capabilities?

The Sprinters are perfectly fine if that is what is happening. Last time I rode a Sprinter was from Geelong (was a while ago before RRL) and it was a reasonably comfortable journey, with the same amenities available as on a Vlocity. Replacing Sprinters with Vlocities would be pointless as they couldn't take advantage of the higher speed capability of a Vlocity on slower track, and Sprinters couldn't take advantage of the higher speed limits on the RRL sections of the network.

The main haunt of Sprinters these days is on the Seymour line, which has a 130km/hr speed limit, and that is perfectly matched to the 130km/hr maximum speed that the Sprinters have too. Most of the time more than two carriages is overkill on that line too.

The real slugs of the interurban fleet are the loco hauled trains but especially the push-pull P class sets which run on Bacchus Marsh and Wyndham Vale services, which are limited to 100km/hr and accelerate like slugs.

Between a 130km/hr Sprinter and a 160km/hr Vlocity is only a marginal difference compared to between the 100km/hr P classes and a 160km/hr Vlocity!

[miclementson]

I have used the D78 Stock when on the District Line; I would not think Viva's rebuild would make them of use in the outer suburban lines here. Far better to Electrify to Bacchus Marsh; and even to the Geelong area.

[krustyklo]

I have used the D78 Stock when on the District Line; I would not think Viva's rebuild would make them of use in the outer suburban lines here. Far better to Electrify to Bacchus Marsh; and even to the Geelong area.

Yes, but you're assuming politicians want to spend real money on solving problems. We are more interested in bandaid solutions to this non-problem...

[Mitch]

And given that the government has just spent a butt-load of "real" money building the "obviously required"* RRL, I highly doubt we will see electrification to Bacchus Marsh or Geelong anytime within the foreseeable future. Obviously not taking into account the Melbourne2050 plan of running trains from Waurn Ponds to South Yarra.

That being said, it would be interesting to know what would happen if the Geelong line was electrified. Would it run via Werribee (where sparks already run), or would it run via the RRL (where they would have to electrify an entire route)?

Thanks,
Mitchul

*paraphrasing the government when the RRL was introduced.

[krustyklo]

That being said, it would be interesting to know what would happen if the Geelong line was electrified. Would it run via Werribee (where sparks already run), or would it run via the RRL (where they would have to electrify an entire route)?

Interesting question. I would suggest they would have little choice but to electrify via Wyndham Vale. If Geelong was electrified then:

• if all trains ran via Werribee and Wyndham Vale was not electrified, it would effectively become a diesel suburban only line. Whilst not a big deal in some ways, it would be non-standard using a more expensive form of propulsion. By the time it happened, I also suspect that older fleet would be retired including Sprinters so would most likely need a new diesel fleet, with added expense over buying electric vehicles so I gather.
• from a political point of view, the RRL would be an expensive white elephant no longer needed for its supposed original purpose of seperating Vline and Metro trains and giving each their own tracks suited to their purpose.
• if electric trains ran via Werribee then they would run at slower speeds and effectively put back all the trains supposedly removed because of congestion, thus putting back most of the congestion.
• if electric trains ran via Werribee then one advantage would be you could run both express, semi-stoppers and stoppers serving both Geelong and Melbourne from intermediate locations, unlike now where Melbourne is the prime destination with some inconvenience if you want to travel towards Geelong from most stations along the Werribee line.

I suspect the real answer would be that given Geelong via RRL would be a seperate track for most/all of its length, a good solution would be a dedicated fleet (likely needed anyway by the time it happens) of 25 kV AC electric EMUs set up for regional services (ie, toilets, better seating, etc) as a start for converting the rest of Melbourne's network as the opportunity arises. For example, I hope the Melbourne Metro is built with provision for conversion to 25kV AC as the Melton, then Sunbury lines would likely be the next in line if Geelong was done in this way and further electrification took place to Melton / Bacchus Marsh, or past Sunbury.

[mrmoopt]

That being said, it would be interesting to know what would happen if the Geelong line was electrified. Would it run via Werribee (where sparks already run), or would it run via the RRL (where they would have to electrify an entire route)?

Interesting question. I would suggest they would have little choice but to electrify via Wyndham Vale. If Geelong was electrified then:

• if all trains ran via Werribee and Wyndham Vale was not electrified, it would effectively become a diesel suburban only line. Whilst not a big deal in some ways, it would be non-standard using a more expensive form of propulsion. By the time it happened, I also suspect that older fleet would be retired including Sprinters so would most likely need a new diesel fleet, with added expense over buying electric vehicles so I gather.
• from a political point of view, the RRL would be an expensive white elephant no longer needed for its supposed original purpose of seperating Vline and Metro trains and giving each their own tracks suited to their purpose.
• if electric trains ran via Werribee then they would run at slower speeds and effectively put back all the trains supposedly removed because of congestion, thus putting back most of the congestion.
• if electric trains ran via Werribee then one advantage would be you could run both express, semi-stoppers and stoppers serving both Geelong and Melbourne from intermediate locations, unlike now where Melbourne is the prime destination with some inconvenience if you want to travel towards Geelong from most stations along the Werribee line.

I suspect the real answer would be that given Geelong via RRL would be a seperate track for most/all of its length, a good solution would be a dedicated fleet (likely needed anyway by the time it happens) of 25 kV AC electric EMUs set up for regional services (ie, toilets, better seating, etc) as a start for converting the rest of Melbourne's network as the opportunity arises. For example, I hope the Melbourne Metro is built with provision for conversion to 25kV AC as the Melton, then Sunbury lines would likely be the next in line if Geelong was done in this way and further electrification took place to Melton / Bacchus Marsh, or past Sunbury.

I would think that the govt would not look at 25kv AC, but stored battery technology or hybrids.
Hybrids can push 200km/h on diesel mode only, but supercap- well we don't have mature enough technology for quasi high speed yet.

[krustyklo]

I would think that the govt would not look at 25kv AC, but stored battery technology or hybrids.
Hybrids can push 200km/h on diesel mode only, but supercap- well we don't have mature enough technology for quasi high speed yet.

Not too convinced, engineers and governments are fairly conservative. Heck, 25kV AC would be radical in Victoria!

Plus, battery technology is hardly new to rail, the UK were trialling it in the 1950s: http://www.railcar.co.uk/type/battery-multiple-unit/

Ditto, the relatively recent conversion of HST power cars to battery hybrids: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_R ... l_train.29, since converted back to normal HST power cars, and the current trial of a hybrid EMU: http://www.railway-technology.com/proje ... emu-essex/, as well as elsewhere around the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_e ... tiple_unit.

Whilst I suspect in reality that if the Geelong line were converted it would be at the same voltage as the current network, if there were to be any radical variations then 25 kV AC is far more likely as it is a proven technology in Australia and around the world than currently unproven battery hybrid DMUs which have never operated at 160 km/h (AFAIK or could find with a quick Google search) and have a significant weight penalty of a diesel engine AND heavy batteries.

Then of course, there ARE flywheels for storing energy...:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

[tranzitjim]

Melbourne - Geelong via Werribee, would be more for the locals, such as Werribee to Meblourne and Werribee to Geelong.

The route via Tarneit would be more for passengers who seek to travel Melbourne to Geelong, as I trust it would remain with few stops enroute. Its more of an express route than the Werribee one is.