The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Tim Williams
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The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Tim Williams »

From all the various comments in this forum I thought trams/light rail were the answer to everything - this new line seems to have been a total failure, why?????

If there was a capacity problem with existing (low capacity) buses, then perhaps large double deckers, with twin staircases and multiple entry/exit should have been considered. They are considerably cheaper than trams, with all there expensive infrastructure and inconvenience to other road users and obviously far more flexible.

Tunnel vision is a real and annoying problem, when it comes to discussions with the tram/light rail lobby!
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THE RAIL, TRAM AND BUS UNION (RTBU) NSW has called on the NSW Government to tell the public whether the Sydney Eastern Suburbs buses will be dismantled [to] prop up the struggling light rail, as extremely low patronage figures released recently again called the project’s business case into question.

“The light rail is a great way to get across the CBD and over to Randwick, but it only works alongside an expanded bus network that still takes commuters from across the Eastern Suburbs all the way into the city," said RTBU NSW Tram and Bus Division president Daniel Jaggers.
"Commuters should not have their direct bus routes into the city cut short at their local tram stop just to inflate patronage figures and cover up the government’s own incompetence," said RTBU NSW Tram and Bus Division president Daniel Jaggers.
"The government has already made a complete hatchet job of our bus network in the last year, blowing out journey times by axing direct bus routes into the city and forcing commuters to change services multiple times just to get around.
"I’d like to ask the Transport Minister: how does forcing commuters to get off and on different modes of public transport improve the customer experience, as he and Transport for NSW keep banging on about?

"The Our Transport community survey, which is the only public consultation conducted with commuters about privatisation and changes to the bus network, found overwhelmingly that commuters don’t want to be forced to change services every day just to get by.
"From day one, the sheer incompetence on show with the light rail project has been astounding. The acceptance of a ridiculously optimistic business case, a $3 billion cost blowout, and the public is footing the bill.

"All this coming from a government that claims to be frugal about spending public money but won’t put a dollar where it actually matters: in the convenient and publicly operated transport that commuters want.
"The light rail is a great way to get across the CBD and over to Randwick, but it only works alongside an expanded bus network that still takes commuters from across the Eastern Suburbs all the way into the city.

"Any extra capacity gained in the bus network because of light rail should be used to build more bus services in the Eastern Suburbs instead of cutting them back.
"Forcing all those people onto trams would be an absolute disaster for journey times. Andrew Constance must guarantee that it won’t happen."
ABC magazine has contacted Transport for NSW (TfNSW) and Minister Constance's office for a reply.
Late this afternoon, a TfNSW spokesperson replied: "Transport for NSW is developing an integrated transport network in Sydney’s South East, designed to improve how customers move around the local area and travel between major hubs such as Sydney CBD, Central station, Randwick, Kingsford, and Taylor Square."
"The plan will adjust bus services in the South East to reflect changed customer travel patterns, while retaining express bus services to the city in order to complement the light rail network.
"Planning for these changes is underway and will be informed by Opal data, changed customer travel patterns, and feedback.
"The community will be consulted on these plans once they are finalised."
tonyp
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by tonyp »

Well for a start Tim, it's far from a total failure. That media item was based on a political beat-up using statistics from last year during the depths of the covid crisis. As well as losing a huge amount of patronage as the crisis deepened (in common with all other modes), one of the line's major patronage generators, University of NSW, basically closed down for a year. Before the pandemic hit, L2 (L3 hadn't opened yet) was carrying about 1.1 million per month. Now on the tail end of the crisis, in March this year, both lines together carried about 1.27 million people, more than twice as many as at the depths of the crisis. If it returns to pre covid levels again, given that both lines carry about an equal share, patronage should readily rise to around 2 million a month. That will be something either side of 20 million a year. That's more than the entire Adelaide train system and substantially more than any single bus line in Australia. Sydney's busiest bus route (all artic operated), 333 to Bondi, carries something up to 10 million per year. Buses simply don't offer the capacity per hour. Much of SE Sydney is also served by many artics as well as the trams. One of the reasons for reinstating the tram was that so many buses were trying to get into the CBD they were choking on their own congestion. It was unsustainable.

The present fuss is about bus passengers interchanging at the outer ends of the tram lines to complete their journeys into the city. The union itself is hardly in a position to speak about this. Their actions in opposing all-door loading and restricting loads on buses to well below their capacity have contributed to the general capacity crisis on Sydney buses. This has been worsened by TfNSW irrationally banning the purchase of artics at a time when they're critically needed. So there's little alternative to building new metro and tram lines in order to overcome the capacity crisis.
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swtt
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by swtt »

In fact I was using the L2 line yesterday. The CBD section was gangbusters, whilst the section to Randwick wasn't full, but did have healthy patronage. So definitely not a failure from any point of view.
Tim Williams
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Tim Williams »

Thanks tonyp and swtt for your responses which make sense - to be honest I expected a response along those lines, noting that original piece was the usual union drivel.

The STA in Adelaide was privatised into several contract zones and one of its main purposes was to break the stranglehold of the Motor Omnibus and Tramways Association (the union) with its many restrictive operating practices. And from my various conversations with senior officials in NSW, when we had the our small regional bus company, i believe the breakup of Sydney Buses into privately operated "Contract Areas" was for similar reasons.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Tim Williams »

The point that I wanted to address was the comment about Adelaide Metro rail. Yes it is a small system and should really operate two lines - one to the north, to Elizabeth and Gawler and the other to the South - Norlunga and Seaton. And this ignores the total chaos with Gawler line electrification, but in the end both lines will be the only electrified lines, for the foreseeable future.

The other two lines, Port Adelaide & Outer Harbour and the Hills Line to Belair will both continue with DMU's and are both lightly patronised and could easily be replaced by buses, but that would be politically unacceptable.

It is interesting to note that Mount Barker in the Adelaide Hills is a real growth area (by Adelaide standards) would be a good suburb for a reasonably fast rail service to Adelaide's CBD, but the existing line, which goes to Mt Barker Junction is a standard gauge single line from Belair through to (close to) Mt Barker Junction, where it reverts to broad gauge. But in any event that whole line through the Hills is slow, almost circular route with quite a number of long slow freight trains on that standard gauge single line.
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boronia
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

What does a tram load of passengers look like when they are unsquashed?

With an AFL Swans match at the SCG today, the trams were put to the test with an estimated 35,000 people attending.

Extra shuttles were provided from Central to MP.

Attached photo shows a typical load being disgorged. The limited number of Opal readers probably slowed dispersement a bit. The southern exit (a tunnel under the down track) was also open today.
DSC07946 (Small).jpeg
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Cazza
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Cazza »

The fact that they make you pay to use public transport to/from large events still never fails to baffle me :roll:

Surely it isn't that much of a stretch for Transport NSW to subsidise and/or absorb the cost of providing free travel. It works a treat up here in Brisbane and saves everyone faffing about for their card (and limits the delays boarding/disembarking vehicles as seen in that photo).
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

Normally the cost of transport to major events like this is covered in the ticket price. This speeds up passenger flow at gates, and is also an incentive to discourage people from using cars.

However it has been temporarily suspended due to desire of health authorities to facilitate COVID contact tracing.
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Cazza
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Cazza »

When I saw a Swans game a good few years ago, it was the same deal having to pay to/from the SCG. Boarding the Central shuttle buses took FOREVER because of everyone having to tap on, as well as them only allowing people to board through the front door (presumably to make sure everybody pays, I'm not entirely sure).

Being from Brisbane where free travel to events is commonplace, it was only when I stepped on the bus that I realise I had to pay, so there was an extra 30 seconds of wasted dwelling time going through my bag to get my wallet.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

You should have been here in the pre-Opal days, when people paid cash and they only find $10 and $20 notes for the $2.50 fare.

Combo tickets have been around at least since the Olympics in 2000, but do not apply to every sporting or entertainment event.
Last edited by boronia on Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Merc1107 »

Perth has joint-ticketed footbrawl events still - in spite of fairly stringent contact tracing efforts otherwise.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by tonyp »

Merc1107 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:30 pm Perth has joint-ticketed footbrawl events still - in spite of fairly stringent contact tracing efforts otherwise.
And probably all-door loading at events iirc? Same in Brisbane I think? Sydney has a greater population than Perth and Brisbane combined, so naturally it makes sense to squeeze everybody through only one door :?

I don't know whether boronia can tell me whether there was a Central shuttle in between every regular service (i.e. 30 trams per hour)? At that level, there would be capacity to take 13,500 of those 35,000 from the stadium at the end of the game within one hour (cf. 60,000+ in an hour on the old tram system). Presumably the rest (i.e. most) would depart by a mixture of bus, car and walking. Still, that's what the light rail is for. The alternative to those 30 trams is 225 rigid buses or 122 artics (all at Sydney capacity figures), the first of which options would certainly choke on its own congestion. That's why any talk of buses being able to do the job of trams is unrealistic.
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boronia
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

Outbound timetable from Central was as below;

1402 L3; 1406 L2; then every 10 mins until
1454 LX; 1456 L2; 1502 L3;
1504 LX; 1506 L2; 1512 L3
1514 LX; 1516 L2; 1522 L3
1524 LX; 1526 L2; 1532 L3
1534 LX; 1536 L2; 1542 L3
1544 LX; 1546 L2; 1552 L3; 1556 L2
then normal 10 minute frequency.

The return services will be a bit more intense:
19 services between 1900 and 1959 (10x LX, first at 1912)
17 services between 2000 and 2059 (last LX at 2022)
L2 and L3 still at 10 min frequency
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tonyp
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by tonyp »

I wonder how the other 27,000 people got home. Mostly walking to Central I presume.
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boronia
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

Wonder if they got the estimated 35K?

When I was there, good crowds also arriving on inbound trams and buses, as well as buses from the city CBD.

Not to mention the car parks were full.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Swift »

Cars should not even be an option. Pt it or stay home.
Bludgers.

If the light rail can't cope with it all then that proves how inferior it is to the original street car system Sydney had.

Sooner combo tickets return, the better. No more using Covid -21 to fall back on.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Geo101 »

boronia wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:45 pm Wonder if they got the estimated 35K?
33,541 (70% capacity)

https://www.austadiums.com/sport/event/24635
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:22 am
If the light rail can't cope with it all then that proves how inferior it is to the original street car system Sydney had.
If the infrastructure had been designed like that of the old system (one-way continuous non-stop conveyor belt loop) they would certainly be able to get more out of it, but then it might also run into fleet size limitations. Nowadays it's very costly to retain a reserve contingency fleet. Nevertheless, every bit helps. For the very large number of buses it saves it's most certainly worth it.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:39 pm
Merc1107 wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:30 pm Perth has joint-ticketed footbrawl events still - in spite of fairly stringent contact tracing efforts otherwise.
And probably all-door loading at events iirc? Same in Brisbane I think? Sydney has a greater population than Perth and Brisbane combined, so naturally it makes sense to squeeze everybody through only one door :?
Correct. Certainly at the major, supervised stops where large crowds are to be loaded, at the lesser stops I think driver discretion is the nature of the game - the footy goers will hop on any door that is open, though, so they're presumably used to all-door loading.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by mubd »

First off, COVID has been a thing since the light rail lines started, so there hasn't even been a chance to actually get loading figures to adjust the bus network.

Second, the #SaveOurBuses light rail whingers and moaners seem to believe that the existence of buses along the light rail corridor is proof that the light rail is le super epic faile!! when in reality it's pretty much what was expected from the beginning. It does not make any sense to run all stops service buses along the corridor when the higher capacity light rail covers the same area, but these people want one seat for their fat arses to get from Maroubra Junction to Peters of Kensington because they CBF walking across a platform of a morning.
Eastgardens to Kingsford is a 1-2 section fare.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by tonyp »

I wish though that they would run the buses through the Kingsford interchange already to develop some picture of the appetite for interchange and travel patterns in general. I wouldn't be surprised if some did interchange for various reasons, like accessing George St directly.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by buzzkill »

mubd wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:47 pm
Second, the #SaveOurBuses light rail whingers and moaners seem to believe that the existence of buses along the light rail corridor is proof that the light rail is le super epic faile!! when in reality it's pretty much what was expected from the beginning. It does not make any sense to run all stops service buses along the corridor when the higher capacity light rail covers the same area, but these people want one seat for their fat arses to get from Maroubra Junction to Peters of Kensington because they CBF walking across a platform of a morning.
So much this. I chuckled when I read the RBTU release. The only catastrophic failure has been RBTU's attitude that sees PT run purely for their convenience rather than for the benefit of passengers.

As a local resident and PT user, I'm quite happy about LR. I use express buses sometimes at peak and am happy they're retained, but I'll be glad when the conga line of all-stops buses clogging up every artery from Anzac Pde to CBD are removed along LR route.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

While it is easy to point out that the trams have largely run with minimal passengers for most of last year, it could be noted that buses were largely similarly deserted. When I did travel by bus outside of peak along Anzac Pde, I often did so almost alone.
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by swtt »

boronia wrote:While it is easy to point out that the trams have largely run with minimal passengers for most of last year, it could be noted that buses were largely similarly deserted. When I did travel by bus outside of peak along Anzac Pde, I often did so almost alone.
What are bus loadings like this year?

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boronia
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Re: The New Tram/Light Rail Line

Post by boronia »

Bus and tram loadings are picking up. People are getting back to work and more confident about going out.
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