Ferry Observations for 2021

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:14 pm Similarly, the "too wide" trains and "too tall" ferries can be easily explained, but no responses from Transport.The critics continue to exploit these apparent "admissions of guilt".
And then there's bus region operational privatisation and the lies about timetables, assets, fares, services etc trotted out by opponents that the government never properly responds to in order to better-sell the proposals to the public.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by moa999 »

boronia wrote:Similarly, the "too wide" trains and "too tall" ferries can be easily explained, but no responses from Transport.The critics continue to exploit these apparent "admissions of guilt".
Complainers will always complain, and the media will always give them more press.

A story about someone looking forward to a quicker trip, or greater frequency, won't sell, and probably won't get published.

And if you built a new ferry to the exact same specs as the old one, another group would complain it wasn't quick enough and was a waste of money.

If you change anything the negative views will always appear louder.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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Of course they will, but I wonder if any positive views have been put forward at all?

There could at least be something on TfNSW's website or other social media explaining things..

I follow a couple of Newcastle related sites and they like to go on about "Gladys said we can't make trains here". When I point out that it was Kristine who said it about 12 years ago and allowed the Waratahs to be built in China, they quickly disappear LOL. Same with the Newcastle line closure; they accuse the LNP of corruption, but ignore that it was Labor who pushed the idea for many years.
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tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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boronia wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 11:24 pm
I follow a couple of Newcastle related sites and they like to go on about "Gladys said we can't make trains here". When I point out that it was Kristine who said it about 12 years ago and allowed the Waratahs to be built in China, they quickly disappear LOL. S
Well, I'd have to mention that Gladys did actually say it too but your general drift about other misconceptions is right.

https://www.railexpress.com.au/berejikl ... -comments/
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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In wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Ferries
appears a photo with this description "New ferry Esme Timbery undergoing testing off Manns Point on Sydney Harbour February 2021". What us this new ferry for and what class is it?

The only reference I can find goes back to 2016 viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46465&p=989718&hili ... ry#p989718
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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oops - Found some more https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... ss-ferries

Did we miss this on the board here?
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tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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It’s interesting to see this morning how fast the Emeralds go compared to the sluggish Freshwaters. I think there’s only going to be one outcome on the Manly ferries when the public vote with their feet - yet the Freshwater is being overhauled for twenty years more life.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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A twin hull catamaran outruns a forty year old monohull. Now there's a scoop. You have made it pretty clear that you don't like the old ferries which is fine, but rather than death riding them endlessly why not just wait and see what happens?
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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There is an illusion that the Freshwaters have "tourist potential". "People will come from all over the world to ride on them", and "Manly will shrivel up and die if they are taken off the run".

By all means keep one or two, but charge a premium fare for the privilege of riding on them.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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One thing you don't know about me Linto63 is that I love old boats. In fact I wrote a technical article on the Freshwaters when they were designed and built and had many conversations with the Chief Engineer about them. They were fantastic boats at the time but from an earlier technological era. Multihull technology has made them obsolete and expectations for the Manly service are now completely different.

I have no objections to a couple being kept on as weekend backups but if you've seen the deterioration in Freshwater and the massive rebuild going on at the moment (which must cost millions), you'd have to query whether it's worth renewing it for twenty years further life for an experiment that may not turn out to be viable. Keep them going for another year of trialling of the operational concept alongside the Emeralds by all means - and then assess everything at that point.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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If they are sufficiently run down to require replacement as suggested, then there would be little option if they are to be recertified. Bit hard to do a bodge job if there are major components such as hull plates that require replacement. While speed is important for some, as illustrated by some being prepared to pay a premium for the hydrofoils and catamarans that have paralleled the slow boats for the past 50 years, the majority have still gone for the latter.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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In fact, patronage on the service offered by the Freshwaters has been draining away and the fast ferry increasingly favoured in spite of its premium fare. So if a new fast ferry is introduced at standard Opal fares and at greater frequency, that trend will turn into a slide.

With the level of refit going into Freshwater, it does seem that they're committed to having a large reserve boat for a number of years ahead. Collaroy's time for appraisal will come up in two or three more years. Narrabeen and Queenslciff are in the same condition as Freshwater, which means they're goners in this scenario. The cost of refitting, maintaining and operating these vessels compared to the Emeralds is phenomenal.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Linto63 »

Of course a 40 year old vessel is going to be more maintenance intensive, While major work may be required to keep them going, that the Baragoola remains afloat as it nears 100, indicates that there is probably a bit more life in the hulls yet.

At least the Freashwaters have a bit of character and uniqueness. Much like with recent bus and train purchases, the replacements will be off the rack and perfunctory, without the style and flair of their predecessors, something the government has begrudgingly acknowledged by back tracking to keep a couple.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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Baragoola doesn't have a hull (virtually). It's kept afloat by some sort of epoxy layer on the outside. When I went in the hull when it was in drydock for this process some years ago, it was like being inside one of those planetariums where you see all the stars in the universe - thousands of pinpricks of light showing through.

Now come on, since when was it the role of public transport to operate a nostalgia museum, unless they can find a way to make a profit out of it? Being the forum's self-appointed advocate of hard-headed reason, you're moving onto thin ice there. As boronia suggested, charge people to use these boats to the level where they can return a profit. In truth, it's no more than a classic piece of political pork barrelling to help the Member for Manly to keep his seat.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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tonyp wrote: Now come on, since when was it the role of public transport to operate a nostalgia museum, unless they can find a way to make a profit out of it?
No one is seriously suggesting they should.
tonyp wrote: Being the forum's self-appointed advocate of hard-headed reason, you're moving onto thin ice there.
Pfff, when it comes to you pet projects you don the socialist cap, yet on others you play the capitalist card
tonyp wrote: In truth, it's no more than a classic piece of political pork barrelling to help the Member for Manly to keep his seat.
Much like many transport decisions over the years, e.g. bodying buses in Tamworth to carry favour with the independent holding the balance of power, transferring the maintenance of the next regional fleet to Dubbo etc. This is just a classic backflip, that this government has taken to a new level, dressed up as listening to the community.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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Linto63 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:38 pm when it comes to you pet projects you don the socialist cap, yet on others you play the capitalist card
In the interests of critical self analysis, what are examples where I've donned a socialist cap? There was a time in the past where where government or municipal administrations operated almost all public transport systems and did it very well (and still do in cases in Europe for example), but the situation has changed since then with most of that expertise and skill emigrating to the private sector which is better-placed to advise on and manage operations. I don't think governments generally should be involved in operations but they definitely need to retain sufficient skills to provide the oversight from the back end.

I sometimes ask myself what the PJMS Co would have done with the Manly ferries in the present day and they definitely would be with wave-piercing cats, no big boats. They were already heading in that direction before they folded but the technology hadn't matured (in fact barely started) by then. The hydrofoils didn't have the capacity or economy to be the whole solution at that time. Today, the economic equation has been pretty-well solved and capacity per boat has grown and can be topped up with greater frequency which is possible with the much faster journey (itself a goal they had been trying to achieve for a hundred years). The Freshwaters weren't the right solution at the time but the alternative hadn't fully emerged at that stage. They could potentially achieve journey times that matched that of the last three Scottish steamers but then they had to compromise that because it was too costly to run both engines regularly. They were the dead end of that technology, a summary of all the problems with it rather than a solution. Only public servants with their hands on plenty of taxpayer money could come up with a "solution" like that.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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tonyp wrote: In the interests of critical self analysis, what are examples where I've donned a socialist cap?
Wollongong free shuttle
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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Linto63 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:07 am Wollongong free shuttle
The whole of public transport is a "socialist" venture nowadays! However, these free shuttles (which provide indirect cost benefits through savings in traffic management for example) still earn revenue if the agency/operator has done their job properly. The Perth CATs are wholly funded by city parking station users, the higher parking fee in turn being a disincentive to drive to the city. Others are funded by beneficiaries such as councils, universities and businesses which in turn, and as a result, don't have to invest in so much parking and traffic infrastructure. Even governments that fund the shuttles are beneficiaries. Much patronage on the Gong Shuttle is related to Wollongong Hospital which saves the government paying to build more parking for the hospital. It's simplistic to assume that fare revenue is the only issue in the financial equation.
Last edited by tonyp on Wed Mar 17, 2021 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/syd ... 57b9p.html

The picture given looks like they are ferries about to be retired. They don't look new at all.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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I can't stand the union parrotting the bit about "height issues" being a result of them being built overseas. What part of designed in Australia to Transport for NSW's specifications, is so hard to understand? They are exactly the height they were intended to be, yes there are some minor concerns about the operational impact but that is entirely an Australian problem.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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The MUA has also been vocal about the Mark 2 Emeralds:
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/ ... ddd7562775

Maritime Union of Australia raise fears for new Manly ferry vessels

Problems with the vessels set to replace the Manly Ferry for commuter services could delay the new boats being put into service, the Maritime Union warns.
James O’Doherty

March 24, 2021 - 4:37PM

Problems with the vessels set to replace the Manly Ferry for commuter services could delay the new boats being put into service, the Maritime Union warns.

More than 80 defects or safety observations were made by inspectors when the new Emerald Class ferries were delivered to Australia.

The problems identified by the union include faulty windows and poor plumbing in the engine rooms.

According to the Maritime Union of Australia’s safety inspections, all of the windows in the second generation Emerald Class ferries need replacing.

There are also concerns steel plating on the hulls are too thin to hold a rigid form.

The MUA believes the remediation work required to fix the problems is too complex to get the ferries into service by the middle of this year as planned.

A Transport for NSW spokesman said a number of “improvements” that have been identified are being assessed.

“This is a rigorous and robust process to ensure each vessel meets the strictest of safety standards before entering into customer service by around the middle of the year,” the spokesman said.

Transport for NSW said seaworthiness trials of the new Emerald Class ferries were planned for later this month.

“Trials and testing of this nature are a normal part of any commissioning process for a new fleet. A similar process was undertaken prior to introducing the first generation of Emeralds into service,” a spokesman said.

Photos of the new boats last week reveal one vessel — dubbed “Balmoral” — on the water.

Labor believes the foreign-built hulls contain problems that would not have occurred if the boats were built in Australia.

There are also concerns the new vessels would not be able to handle bad weather conditions, such as those seen in the harbour this week.

“When the Freshwater ferries are due for replacement, it should be with a locally built and designed vessel that can manage heavy seas safely and reliably,” Deputy Labor Leader Yasmin Catley said.

“The cheap junk that Andrew Constance has built offshore are just no match for the Freshwaters,” Ms Catley said.

Meanwhile, state Parliament will today debate a petition signed by 22,000 people calling for the government to abandon its plans to replace the Freshwater class ferries.
None of this, if true, is surprising as Birdons were unlucky enough to send the job off to China to coincide with the covid crisis, so no supervision from Australia during the job was possible, particularly involvement of the surveyors vital to ensuring that construction was complying. So no doubt Birdons have had quite a few issues delivered back to them that they must rectify (the government is not on the hook, but politically they get all the flak of course).

A couple of photos of Balmoral on the Hastings River from the above article (attributed Nathan Edwards). They must have been taken before the flood as the shipyard is currently closed, to add to the woes. For those interested, you can just make out the third, wave-piercing, hull between the outer hulls. Quite a different vessel from the Mark1 Emeralds though with the same "block of flats" on top. The odd-looking "carrot slicers" on the bow are braced against the superstructure to help the bow resist the forces of impact of heavy seas.

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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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You have to question the integrity of the MUA's comments when they don't seem to even know where they were built:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ktMxFjkrMs
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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jpp42 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:21 pm I can't stand the union parrotting the bit about "height issues" being a result of them being built overseas. What part of designed in Australia to Transport for NSW's specifications, is so hard to understand? They are exactly the height they were intended to be, yes there are some minor concerns about the operational impact but that is entirely an Australian problem.
There aren't "height issues" with the ferries. The only problem seems to be if there are passengers on the upper deck. A simple solution like closing off the top deck seems to be beyond the grasp of the detractors.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: You have to question the integrity of the MUA's comments when they don't seem to even know where they were built:
The Manly vessels were built in China, those for the Parramatta River in Indonesia. No direct quotes from the MUA in either article, appears that it is only the Daily Wail that has its facts wrong.
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Re: Ferry Observations for 2021

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boronia wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:15 pm
jpp42 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 1:21 pm I can't stand the union parrotting the bit about "height issues" being a result of them being built overseas. What part of designed in Australia to Transport for NSW's specifications, is so hard to understand? They are exactly the height they were intended to be, yes there are some minor concerns about the operational impact but that is entirely an Australian problem.
There aren't "height issues" with the ferries. The only problem seems to be if there are passengers on the upper deck. A simple solution like closing off the top deck seems to be beyond the grasp of the detractors.
Yes, I was being a bit charitable to the media angle on it by calling it an 'issue.' The only height issue is an operational one in that they have to close off the top deck, as you say. It's still an issue technically, just an extraordinarily minor one, and most importantly, nothing to do with the country of origin and everything to do with the intended design from the Australian TfNSW staff and the Australian design firm designing to these specs.
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