WS Airport Metro

[Campbelltown busboy]

Just found this thread... quite a bit different from the Brisbane metro!! Governments like to have their own definitions of things!

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/traffic ... bane-metro

The SW or western Sydney airport metro is a joint NSW government/commonwealth of Australia government project where the Brisbane metro is a joint Queensland government/city of Brisbane project

[tonyp]

Perhaps the multi-faceted definition being sought is that Sydney metro is a rail rapid transit system, while the Brisbane metro is a bus rapid transit system. Canberra metro is a fast tram, Melbourne metro is a slowish suburban commuter rail system and Adelaide metro is a potpourri of fast and slow trains, trams and buses. The common factor that unites them is the word metro. It seems to me that the Sydney one is closest to the commonly accepted definition of the word.

[Fleet Lists]

We already have quite a long thread on the Brisbane Metro so we dont need to duplicate it here
https://busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=84034
And 385BUZ has posted in that previously

[moa999]

Sydney one is closest to the commonly accepted definition.

In all cases it's just marketing of a 'shiny new thing' to differentiate it. Same as the stickers to make the Waratah B sets look different.

While Sydney's metro has some metro features, on station spacing and frequency (particularly off peak) it is very much commuter.

[tonyp]

In all cases it's just marketing of a 'shiny new thing' to differentiate it. Same as the stickers to make the Waratah B sets look different.

While Sydney's metro has some metro features, on station spacing and frequency (particularly off peak) it is very much commuter.

It's almost exactly like the Perth system, a rapid transit system - high average speed, with high frequency and an all-stopping pattern. Perth is sometimes described as similar to an S-Bahn, but in the end, as you say, it's all marketing terminology. The main benefit of the metro description in Sydney is to distinguish it from the suburban system which, with its mixture of all-stops and express, plus merging lines, is more traditional commuter rail. It can be pointed out though, that the Bankstown line with its close station spacings will be more like what is traditionally considered metro.

[Linto63]

It's almost exactly like the Perth system, a rapid transit system - high average speed, with high frequency and an all-stopping pattern.

Perth is hardly high frequency, 10 minutes peak and 30 minute off-peak frequency on some lines, and multiple stopping patterns with stations skipped.

[Merc1107]

It's almost exactly like the Perth system, a rapid transit system - high average speed, with high frequency and an all-stopping pattern.

Perth is hardly high frequency, 10 minutes peak and 30 minute off-peak frequency on some lines, and multiple stopping patterns with stations skipped.

3mins peak on the major North-South corridor, with every other service typically a 'short-working' on the inner section of those lines. 10mins is generally accurate for the heritage lines. 30min off-peak is predominantly at night, and the Thornlie spur on Sundays, as I recall (thus every other Armadale train is an all-stops pattern).

Excluding the Armadale/Thornlie line, all lines now run all-stops, all the time.

[tonyp]

Add to that - weekday off-peak frequency in Perth except later at night is typically 15 minutes. On Sydney metro it's 10 minutes, reflecting the greater demand in a city more than twice the population. Certain stations sharing services on the Armadale and Thornlie lines have 7-8 minute off-peak headways. When I lived in London many years ago, our tube line had 10 minute off-peak frequency but that has probably changed since then with population growth.

[BroadGauge]

Trains in Perth drop back to 30 minute frequencies from as early as around 7:00pm, depending on which line, direction and day of the week you're referring to.

I'm not sure if the Perth CBD is still deserted at night like it used to be, but that's still a significant downgrade compared to even Sydney's legacy heavy rail network, which runs 15 minute frequencies to outlying places like Campbelltown at all times that services operate, on every day of the year.

Also notable is that weekend trains in Perth start up a little late compared to Sydney, particularly on a Sunday when during the summer months, seeing as Perth does not observe DST the first trains are well after sunrise.

[boxythingy]

15min frequencies to Campbelltown were only implemented 3 years ago, at the expense of cutting direct trains to Parramatta

[tonyp]

Trains in Perth drop back to 30 minute frequencies from as early as around 7:00pm, depending on which line, direction and day of the week you're referring to.

I'm not sure if the Perth CBD is still deserted at night like it used to be, but that's still a significant downgrade compared to even Sydney's legacy heavy rail network, which runs 15 minute frequencies to outlying places like Campbelltown at all times that services operate, on every day of the year.

Also notable is that weekend trains in Perth start up a little late compared to Sydney, particularly on a Sunday when during the summer months, seeing as Perth does not observe DST the first trains are well after sunrise.

Much smaller city and nothing much seems to go on at night outside Fremantle, unless I missed something. My basic point is that it's a rapid transit system like Sydney metro, yes partly on a less intense scale, but still with the fast journeys and all stops.

[boronia]

15min frequencies to Campbelltown were only implemented 3 years ago, at the expense of cutting direct trains to Parramatta

WAsn't there a period some years prior when they had 15 minute frequency (they did to Penrith I know), but this was cut back due to some operational problems?

[boxythingy]

I lived in Campbelltown since the mid 2000s and never saw 4 trains per hour services via the Green coloured line until 3 years ago. In fact, there may still be some capacity issues until the signalling is upgraded in the Airport tunnel. Stops on the Revesby terminators during EVENING weekend services are essentially stopped and merged into MacArthur/Campbelltown terminators resulting in excruciating longer journey times especially when one wants to get home quickly during that time

[Linto63]

Looking at some CityRail timetables from 2012, the T1 between Blacktown and Penrith, T8 between Revesby and Macarthur and T9 between Strathfield and Epping all had 30 minute frequencies (at least partially) during the weekday off-peak.

[jaseee]

The 2012 timetable was after the Labor cuts, so they did have 30 min frequencies. The early 2000s timetable has a 15 min weekday offpeak frequency between Blacktown and Penrith, as does stations between Hornsby and Strathfield (except Denistone, Rhodes, Concord West and North Strathfield).

[boronia]

15min frequencies to Campbelltown were only implemented 3 years ago, at the expense of cutting direct trains to Parramatta

WAsn't there a period some years prior when they had 15 minute frequency (they did to Penrith I know), but this was cut back due to some operational problems?

Whatever the problem was (ISTR a driver shortage?) there were cuts/suspensions of the Cumberland line as well.

[swtt]

WAsn't there a period some years prior when they had 15 minute frequency (they did to Penrith I know), but this was cut back due to some operational problems?

Whatever the problem was (ISTR a driver shortage?) there were cuts/suspensions of the Cumberland line as well.

The rot started after the Olympics.

In 2002, the then Transport Minister Carl Scully tried to implement an ambitious April 2002 timetable (See: https://www.smh.com.au/national/shortag ... df6d9.html) - which was apparently stopped just 2 weeks out with all timetable promotional material and also booklets were printed. However, that TT was hardly a memory timetable, and industrial relations plummeted to an all time low. It tried to replicate or better the service frequencies that of the botched 1996 timetable, which was shelved only after a couple of months' of operation to introduce the Cumberland Line.

The poor on time running, plus staff shortage, gave rise to the July 2004 TT, which had 30% of weekend services axed, with weekday service levels comparable to the then 1992 timetable but now with the Airport Line and Cumberland Line in action. 2004 also saw the weekend Inner West line (Liverpool to City via Regents Park) services gone, with services only operating out of Lidcombe or Liverpool via Bankstown. (See: https://www.smh.com.au/national/railing ... djiz3.html). It was essentially a weekend TT change and left the weekday services largely intact -- 15 min frequencies Penrith - City, 30 min Campbelltown - City via East Hills with another 30 min Campbelltown - City via Granville service, supplemented by 30 min Glenfield to City via Granville service. The Northern Line remained at 30 min for large parts of the day, unchanged from almost 1992.

2005 was the next big change, with the 2004 weekend changes brought into the weekday, giving trains plenty of fat at major interchanges such as Central, Strathfield, Chatswood etc. (See: https://www.smh.com.au/national/rail-ti ... dm0aa.html). In 2005, Epping terminators were truncated to Eastwood for around 4 years to allow for the eventual shutdown of one of Epping's platforms. Things ran generally on time, but with appalling frequencies: Chatswood to City for example, ran at a 15 min frequency in the weekday off peaks, causing major crowding problems even for the off peak. It wasn't until 28/5/2006 when a subsequent update was pushed out which took advantage of the newly constructed Bondi Junction Turnback, that Northern Line trains which ran Hornsby - Nth Sydney via Strathfield, were extended back to Lindfield to cater for the Chatswood crowds. (See: http://cdn.timetable.org.au/tabletalk200501issue.pdf). Rail Clearways announced by the then Premier Carr.

It really isn't until 2009, when the ECRL was fully commissioned, that we see a major uplift in service levels. Having said that, the lower Northern, South and Western lines still saw 30 min off peak frequencies, and not until 2010 when the Cronulla branch duplication was completed, that the Illawarra would've also only saw 30 min off peak frequencies, as well as the Bankstown loop cut to a Bankstown "C", with the Lidcombe turnback opening in 2010 and Homebush turnback in 2011 (but had been sitting idle since 2008!)

2013 saw the biggest single major uplift in decades. We finally see 15 min weekday off peak services reinstated to Penrith, and introduction of the weekday off peak services to Epping with a swap - Epping to Berowra via Shore and Penrith to Hornsby via Macq Park instead of Epping - Hornsby via City and Mac Park etc. (See: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/newsro ... le-changes), and formed the base for the then-T2 line to be extended to Leppington, as well as formed the timetable base for the 2018-2019 ECRL shutdown and eventual return of Hornsby to City via Strathfield slow services, with train paths basically ready to be "slotted" into what the old ECRL services would've used.

2017 was the followup with weekend frequencies boosted to 15 min to many more stations, and replicated much of the weekday timetable into the weekend, as well as a major reform to how the T2/T8 operate, with T2 permanently diverted to Leppington and T8 split off, and also T2 branching off to use the new Parramatta turnback. The 2005 Rail Clearways plan, had finally been realised by 2017 (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Clearways_Program)

[marcnut1996]

https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/m ... ject/35016
EIS released today.

See also media release: https://www.sydneymetro.info/article/ha ... ro-project

[moa999]

So looks like a ESR style design for the Airport and Aerotropolis stations with spare platforms above.

[tonyp]

So looks like a ESR style design for the Airport and Aerotropolis stations with spare platforms above.

From studying chapter 7 in particular, the lack of reference to the future additional lines in the station designs is rather baffling. We can see that the West Metro is coming in from the north and will be sharing the business park, airport and Bringelly station sites, that the Leppington line will come from the east and share the Bringelly station site and that there are stubs at each end of the line for future extension north and south. However, there is nothing in the station designs themselves other than obvious ground space left alongside for additional tracks and platforms at the same level - four extra tracks at Bringelly and two at the airport and business park. There is no indication that there will be any excavation for the future platforms at the same time as the initial work, so presumably there will be some intrusive excavation and construction going on alongside these stations in the future. Most significantly, there doesn't seem to be any design for stacking the additional platforms and lines above each other.

[marcnut1996]

So I guess that's a submission/suggestion you/we could give during this exhibition period. Submissions close 2 December.

[marcnut1996]

Also, while not directly related to WS Airport Metro, exhibition of proposed amendments to the M12 EIS also starts today but ends earlier at 4 November.
https://www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/m ... ject/10226 (go down to "amendments" tab)

[moa999]

, the lack of reference to the future additional lines in the station designs is rather baffling. .

Maybe not the Airport on a 2nd look, but possiy Aerotropolis has a shell built in.

[tonyp]

There are references in the text to provision being made for additional tracks of the West Metro and the Leppington Line and on the maps there is open space on the east side of the three stations. At the business park it's an open cut and, according to the diagram, there is a sloping embankment that will have to be excavated for the additional tracks and platform. As in the case of all three stations, the fascia of the station canopy would have to be removed in order to be dovetailed in with the canopy over the new platform. With the airport and Bringelly there would have to be a major excavation alongside the station.

Once upon a time, provision for these future works would be made at the time of the original project and we'd spend the following 50 years (typically during the course of a Labor government!) looking at a massive hole in the ground surrounded by hoardings, unfinished fascias etc waiting for "stage 2". Nowadays it seems that they want to package these works as discreet projects and not spend a penny towards the future stage except making provision of ground space.

I don't read that airport cross-section as being space for tracks above, That's one of those huge two-storey atriums. The ground space is along the east side. At Bringelly it could be either tracks alongside, stacked or, like Bankstown perhaps, Metro West and Leppington line butting each other end to end.

[Transtopic]

I understood that provision was to be made for a 4 platform box at the airport station during the initial construction phase. It seems preposterous that they would only build 2 platforms initially and then come back years later to build another 2, with all the disruption that would entail. As I've stated previously, I still maintain that they should have allowed for 6 platforms at the airport station, like the Aerotropolis, to accommodate a future extension of the SWRL from Leppington.

Completion of Metro West has already been pushed back into the 2030's and any prospect of it being extended to the airport could be at least a couple of decades away. Extension of the SWRL should take precedence over that as it would provide an earlier link with the airport from the fast developing South West Growth Region, which the airport actually adjoins. It's absurd that the rail link from St Marys to the airport was given priority, although I acknowledge that it would eventually be needed. I fear that an ideological preference for metro construction has overruled any immediate prospect of extension of the SWRL, no matter how valid a case for it may be.

However, I do share your puzzlement at the apparent lack of any detail about the future lines, both metro and SWRL.