NSW Electric Bus Plan

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:44 am ^
Or did someone at Anytrip break the filter when adding more entries.
Maybe, but I also did a scan across the individual buses but that's admittedly like looking for a needle in a haystack! Is there anything else publicly available to track buses by their number?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ZIB-585 »

moa999 wrote:^
Or did someone at Anytrip break the filter when adding more entries.
A better question may be whether it has been noted in Anytrip to begin with.
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

The STA Element is trialling around Bondi-Bronte the next two weeks. Constance and the local member were in an announcement ceremony at CD today but I don't know any more details. Perhaps somebody has come across some press?

Range 450 km or 16 hours. This is significantly greater than any other electric bus operating locally.

Edit: just picked that the trial will be fare-free so is public. Also an announcement that next generation of ferries will be electric.

Edit 2: It's running on 324 and 379. In answer to an earlier question, yes there are facing seats on the trailing edge of the rear axle, hard to avoid on a low floor bus I guess. The diameter of the wheels look smaller than on our diesel buses - European style to help achieve the low floor.

The timely disappearance of electric buses off Anytrip is of course extremely helpful in identifying where and when the bus is running (not). There seems to be absolutely no way of providing feedback to Anytrip.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ABS »

Typing the fleet number of buses into the search on AnyTrip appears to find the vehicle (provided the fleet number is programmed into the console).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Few more photos from Constance Twitter
https://twitter.com/AndrewConstance/sta ... 27552?s=19
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by LB608 »

That bus in the photo is the second electric one
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

So are there two CD electrics?
5486 in pic above
6520 mentioned earlier?
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:17 pm So are there two CD electrics?
5486 in pic above
6520 mentioned earlier?
There are six, all demonstrators to be sent to various locations.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Classic European citybus interior (missing only the back door, but that's possible to fit), demonstrated by Gabrielle Upton MP:

Image
moa999
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Thanks.
So it does have a rear facing seat over the rear wheel. I was struggling to work out how you could get rid of that with a low floor.

It's still undoubtedly better, albeit I doubt those who struggle with a sloped floor or single step would be able to climb into those elevated seats

Is there a list as to where all six are going?

Sent a message to Anytrip re the tracker but haven't heard anything.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 12:51 am Thanks.
So it does have a rear facing seat over the rear wheel. I was struggling to work out how you could get rid of that with a low floor.

It's still undoubtedly better, albeit I doubt those who struggle with a sloped floor or single step would be able to climb into those elevated seats

Is there a list as to where all six are going?

Sent a message to Anytrip re the tracker but haven't heard anything.
I've spent years riding this type of bus in Europe (where they've been operating for more than twenty years) and latterly as one who struggles with steps. I can tell you this is vastly easier (and heaps safer) than trying to negotiate steps in the aisle (or at the door, I'm talking to you Bustech). You just plant your bum on the seat and swivel around. It's also easier getting up as the floor is a little lower relative to the seat squab so you're getting up already in a semi-standing position rather than having to exert more effort rising from a lower position where the seat is on the floor. A stepless gangway also facilitates general passenger circulation and hopefully helps unblock the reluctance of standing passengers to move down the back. It also opens the way to future designs with a door at the rear of the bus, which gets rid of the "cave" or dead-end which is an undesirable feature in public transport vehicle design. Custom are introducing a remarkable advance in bus design to Australia, so its not only significant as an electric bus, it's significant as a bus in general.

I have some idea of where they're going but don't feel at liberty to disclose that yet. The allocation of one to Busways was mentioned by CD some time ago.

Some coverage from 7 News:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9seeVgiojQ

Edit: Note the return of the emergency exit at the rear window in the Gabrielle Upton photo above. The lack of an exit in the "cave" has been a worrying feature in Australian buses for many years now and the consequences were evident in that Brisbane incident. I guess it should also guarantee that there's no wrap over the rear window (fingers crossed).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Seeing a clearer image of the rear slope really reminds me of the two Mercedes O405N's that STA had in the late 90's up until 2017 when services were privatised and handed over to a private operator. Unlike the NH's that Australia knows & loves these O405N's were fully low floor with a slope going up to the back where the rear seats then look to be on a mount but I reckon you'd be able to easily sit on them.

Image

I sadly never got the chance to ride these due to their rareness and difficulty to come across but I'm definitely getting similar vibes with the new Custom Denning Element. From that image I can't really tell if there is a seat that goes over the rear wheel but I'd imagine so. Maybe someone who was fortunate enough in the past to go on one of the two O405N's could properly answer this.

Unlikely but I wonder if they took inspiration from the O405N's, while not everything is 100% spot on there is a lot of similarities (but of course modernaised)
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

CD's inspiration came directly from Europe where there are huge fleets of this type, particularly originating from Iveco (originally Renault and Karosa) who are the biggest bus manufacturers in Europe, particularly at Europe's biggest bus factory, the former Karosa plant at Vysoké Mýto in Czech Republic. For the last 25 years this plant (supported by another in France) has churned out tens of thousands of these buses as diesel, gas, trolley and battery-electric. They've had huge experience with electric buses, typically in association with Škoda Electric in Czech Republic who produce most of the drive-trains.

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... tion-plant

The Germans and Swedes have been making good money out of diesel and it took them longer to come to both the low floor and electric parties (bear in mind that Germany and Sweden destroyed almost all of their trolleybus systems so had no motivation to go into electric buses). Australian buses have of course been based on German and Swedish chassis for many decades now, which explains the far more conservative approach to design. As has been well-discussed on this forum, there have been some examples of low-floor buses here over the years, notably the Renault Agoraline and the Scania N series (one Swedish manufacturer that did get the message), but Australian agencies and operators haven't understood the benefits. They have also been equally uninformed about electric buses, which explains the early uptake of Chinese low-entry designs, but luckily CD has come to the rescue. It will be interesting to see how the local bus market now responds. Some will no doubt still not understand, ably assisted by TfNSW's apparent preference for "fairly" allocating orders across all manufacturers regardless of design quality.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by moa999 »

Got a filter running on 324,379 on Anytrip and checked the bus types a few times but haven't seen it today.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by idontknow556 »

You won't find it yet. It's still in the to be delivered list though I am expecting it to enter service soon maybe within the next week or two
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by boronia »

If it is not running rostered trips, it is not likely to show up in apps??
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tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

There are two buses in the to-be-delivered list.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

Make sure to watch the video too:

https://www.busnews.com.au/bus-reviews/ ... ng-element

It seems like the standee capacity is going to be rated at 24 (total capacity 67), well below its design capacity, but it's still pretty good and I think up the top with any other equivalent NSW citybus and more than the Chinese buses.

Edit: Apparently a temporary charger is being supplied with each demo bus.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

tonyp wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:12 am
Incidentally, the Custom Element has 43 seats and the BCI 45, so the Australian designs are better on this. The Chinese buses have very large rear cabinets that basically cost a row of seats.

Edit: Just searching further afield for comparison, I note that the single, Australian-designed, Bustech prototype in Adelaide has 41 seats. The Volgren BYD D9RA prototype in Melbourne has 39 seats, but that's boosted by the typical Melbourne single-leaf centre door, so if the door was double leaf, the figure would be more like 37. Incidentally, the Yutong demonstrators also have a single leaf centre door, so with a double leaf, the seating capacity would be no more than 38. It's a symptom of the compromises you get with Chinese design - they're not the best.
With some digging around I've got together the NSW registered capacities of the locally-available electric buses (all double leaf doors unless noted by exception):

Custom Denning Element low floor: 43 seats, 24 standing, total 67 (design capacity 80)

Yutong E12 low entry: 40 seats (38 if with double-leaf centre door), 10 standing, total 50

BCI Citirider E low entry: 45 seats, 20 standing, total 65

Gemilang BYD K9 low entry: 35 seats, 27 standing, total 62

Here are interstate examples:

Volgren BYD D9 low entry: 39 seats (37 if with double-leaf centre door), 22 standing, total 61

Bustech ZDi low floor: 41 seats, standees ??, total ??

I'm guessing the lower registered capacities of the Chinese buses are due to weight (axle load) with a full load.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by grog »

The video review you linked to above mentions 1 or 2 door options - any source for the ability to specify 3 doors, or is this just based on an understanding of the design of the bus?
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

grog wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:15 am The video review you linked to above mentions 1 or 2 door options - any source for the ability to specify 3 doors, or is this just based on an understanding of the design of the bus?
You're referring to a third door after the rear axle. They say the design is flexible and they can look at any of those sort of options. I can pretty-well guess why the initial product has the motor on the nearside. The German-sourced ZF rear axle is a LHD one and the diff is on the European offside, thus on the RHD nearside. I guess it would cost extra to have an axle made with the diff on the Australian offside, so they've gone with what's easiest. But, yes, this is the change that would have to be made to put the motor on the offside and hence enable space for a door. From photos it doesn't look too difficult to transfer other components across. The aisle does have a slight ramp-up to the back, so they would also have to address that to get the floor down to door threshold level, a design issue that's long been dealt with in Europe and that's where Custom Denning has sourced its design concepts.

A third door would I think be futile in NSW as long as the front door loading regime prevails (and heaven knows a third door with all-door loading is needed on the Gong Shuttle). However, it might be of some interest in Perth with the CATs for example.
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by lunchbox »

Wow, a rear window!
Just what we needed for changing travel plans en route.
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

lunchbox wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 pm Wow, a rear window!
Just what we needed for changing travel plans en route.
Would this be what we used to do in days of yore - seeing the bus we really wanted to catch pull up behind us and we rush off to go and catch it? :lol:

Yes, the diesel engine firewall certainly put paid to that for many years (though not so much in Europe).
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:01 am
lunchbox wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 pm Wow, a rear window!
Just what we needed for changing travel plans en route.
Would this be what we used to do in days of yore - seeing the bus we really wanted to catch pull up behind us and we rush off to go and catch it? :lol:

Yes, the diesel engine firewall certainly put paid to that for many years (though not so much in Europe).
Then you have the issue of transport advertising agencies giving operators ads or AOA wraps from advertisers that would cover the rear window
tonyp
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Re: NSW Electric Bus Plan

Post by tonyp »

During the Minister's media event at Waverley Depot recently, this curious statement was made and is now appearing across a lot of media:
Before Friday, the electrification of the NSW fleet has been through either the conversion of existing diesel buses or with electric buses built overseas.
The second part is true of course but the first part is bizarre. The economics of converting a diesel bus are extremely dubious, let alone the issue of whether the bus is physically suited to a conversion. There have been a couple of conversions of diesel buses to trolleybuses in Europe over the years, but such conversions are so rare internationally as to be almost non-existent, let alone in Australia. Even hybrid buses here have been built as new. Does anybody know of an Australian example, or this just another Constancism that has fallen from the mouth, so to speak?
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