Ferry Observations 2020

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: Freshwater Class in Doubt.

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: I've used London buses, as well as buses in Europe, USA and Australia for daily commuting so I know them intimately.
Likewise, and I can throw in Asia, so you are not the only person qualified to comment.
tonyp wrote: The London double-deckers are small, cramped, slow and with long dwell times.
You haven't been there since the 1980s by the sound of it. Space isn't a problem, or no different to double-deckers that are operated in Australia. London buses load and unload more efficiently than buses here, because they operate a flat fare system meaning there is no need to tap off and most people understand the board via the front door, alight via the rear protocol.
tonyp wrote: If you want to get anywhere in a reasonable time in London you use the underground.
As is the case in every congested city around the world.
tonyp wrote: They have a lot in common with the Freshwaters as "icons" - they're highly identifiable as an iconic image of the city but if you don't want a slow journey, they're not the regular commuter's first choice.
Things don't just become icons overnight, it is something that is earned. To qualify they need to have some sought of uniqueness, inspire or break new ground. The Emeralds are just another class of perfunctory ferries, unlikely that they will make it to icon status.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Swift »

Did you ever ride the MCW Metrobuses (M) and Leyland Titans (T)? We're they the same deal? What about Fleetlines (DMS)?
What about the single deckers like the Leyland Nationals (LS) or AEC Merlin/Swifts (MB /SMS) were they any better?
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Linto63
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Linto63 »

They weren't brilliant, probably on par with with the Leopards and Atlanteans that we were purchasing at the same time. Seemed alright at the time, but ride a heritage example today and you realise they were a bit ropey.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Fleet Lists »

Can we please get off a bus discussion in this thread.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Swift »

It was talk of whether the Emeralds would ever be icons like the Routemaster that lead to the tangent.
Ok so what's the latest with Andy McAndyface??
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tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:59 pm It was talk of whether the Emeralds would ever be icons like the Routemaster that lead to the tangent.
The iconic Manly ferries that everybody associated with Sydney were the PJMS Co. ones and their predecessors from Phantom in 1859 through to South Steyne and North Head with the latter running until 1985. Associated with these boats continuously over that time was the distinctive black and white funnel and, latterly from the 1920s, the Bristol Green hull. There was also a constant history of innovation (including progressing from steam to electric drive) associated with them and the public were often given a buzz over the years with something new and notably aesthetically attractive.

The Freshwaters were certainly at the tail end of the innovation process but were very bland and made up of elements of internationally standard design with nothing to grab the imagination like the completely unique PJMS boats which weren't represented by anything similar anywhere else in the world. When the government came up with a colour scheme for the new ferries (after finding that blue and white were an excellent canvas for displaying rust), it was not the Manly ferry colours but an imitation of the inner-harbour Sydney Ferries scheme of 1932. So the Freshwaters will come and then vanish over a brief period of less than 40 years while at least two preserved examples of the PJMS boats will (hopefully) live on, both in reality and in poster art, as the collective image of the Manly ferry like the London RT and RM buses, Melbourne's W class trams or Prague's Tatra T3 trams, defying anything new that has come along since to replace them.

It's absolutely too early to judge the Emeralds. They are the start of the next generation and something that our descendants will judge, although there's always some pundit who will tell us what people will think in the future!

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Nugget
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Nugget »

I think there is a difference between iconic in the eyes of a gunzel and that of the regular public.

The iconic status of a Manly ferry is not so much the class but the dual ended nature of the ferries that ply Sydney Harbour. More of a design status rather than any particular class.

It's like for a time Manly hydrofoils were iconic but alas they are no more.

Will there be another dual ended ferry class used in Sydney. Probably not as the commuting public from Manly has changed significantly over 4 decades. The Emeralds are probably right for a commuter service but if you want it to run as a tourist route then an iconic design is probably what you want. But the NSW government like much of their decisions is kind of like going for a compromise which leads to a disaster.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

Quite honestly I think from a few years after the big boats are gone, if not sooner, most tourists won't give a fig about the type of boat and will be grateful for both the ride (which is still 20 minutes out on the water) and getting to Manly and back to the Quay quicker and more frequently so they have more time on their hands to do more things and spend more time at Manly, which is a tourist attraction in its own right. I think the new regime will actually unlock more patronage.

Only the average gunzel would notice whether it's a double ended boat or not and even less would understand its significance. Plenty of double-ended ferry boats to see in North America and Hong Kong (the latter originally an Australian design).

The major opportunity that's really being lost in the "save the Freshwaters" noise is that the finest example of a traditional double-ended Manly ferry is sitting languishing away in Berrys Bay, having been chucked out of Darling Harbour and cut off from the source of revenue needed to sustain it by the government, which also has a heritage order on it to give the knife a twist. At the cost of some relatively small compromises to its originality, South Steyne is fully compliant with current modern standards for both cruising and as a stationary venue. She could readily act as the iconic symbol of the Manly ferry in either role on the harbour. That situation is the real disgrace and the bland and not terribly significant Freshwaters are a complete red herring that disguises the real issues.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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Hear hear!
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Nugget »

The Steyne isn't going to be union crewed which is why it isn't getting the headlines.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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Nugget wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:39 am The Steyne isn't going to be union crewed which is why it isn't getting the headlines.
That was somehow sorted on previous cruises. The ship obviously requires a very specialised engineering crew that knows the boat. Damage is possible if people unfamiliar with it are on the job unsupervised. Anyway, that's only part of the issue. The biggest issue is allowing it to be somewhere where it can earn its keep. Conserving a large historic ship is a very difficult venture in Australia. There are two traditional Manly ferries on Sydney Harbour. Trying to preserve a Freshwater on top of that would I think be beyond available resources.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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https://transportnsw.info/news/2020/cap ... s#homepage
Captain Cook Lane Cove ferry service changes
Friday 04 December 2020

From last service, Friday 18 December 2020 the Captain Cook Lane Cove (CCLC) ferry service will end.
School students

There will be three dedicated school bus services for students of St. Ignatius College Riverview, starting Term 1, 2021 (28 January 2021):

Route 782s Balmain East Wharf to St Ignatius Riverview (one AM and one PM School Special), run by Transit Systems
Route 783s Woolwich to St Ignatius Riverview (one AM and one PM School Special),operated by Transit Systems
Route 797w QVB to St Ignatius Riverview (one AM and one PM School Special), operated by State Transit

From 14 January 2021, two weeks prior to the new services commencing, you will be able to plan your new trip in the Trip Planner, and access new bus timetables and route maps.

See our guide on how to use the Trip Planner and find a bus timetable for school bus travel.

School students will need to use their Opal card to access these services and are reminded to tap on and off every time.
General customer information

The best alternative public transport option to or from Northwood, Riverview, Hunters Hill, Longueville and Greenwich is a bus.

The following regular bus services nearby from the wharves listed below:
Wharf Alternative bus routes
Riverview

Route 253 to City via Freeway
Route 254 to North Sydney and McMahons Point

Hunters Hill

Route 505 to City via Victoria Road Longueville

Longueville

Route 261 to City via North Sydney

Northwood

Route 261 to City via North Sydney

Greenwich

Route 265 to North Sydney via Crows Nest (transfer to frequent City buses or T1 North Shore Line trains at St Leonards)

Use the Trip Planner to plan your trip with the most up-to-date travel information.

You will need to use your Opal card or other contactless payment method to pay your fare, and you will need to tap on and tap off every time.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Swift »

Was this a privatised Sydney Ferries service?
We have a natural roadway and they choose to use a road system that has to traverse this roadway instead.
Great going Sydney 👏
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tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

This was a Rosmans service. I haven't kept track of it but Captain Cook must have taken it over at some stage.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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Captain Cook has been running the Lane Cove River ferry service for at least 10 years. This was a service that was offered under the old arrangements for private ferries (similar to that used by Cronulla-Bundeena, etc.), where the companies were expected to take full revenue risk but also still conform to IPART fare determinations. Unfortunately that means this service was never integrated into Opal (not even OpalPay, although presumable Captain Cook *could* have done that if they wanted), and never included in much advertisement or signage, such as route maps. It does appear in the trip planner depending on your settings. I would guess these arrangements also mean they would be hard pressed to continue during reduced patronage due to COVID, particularly once JobKeeper ends. It's also worth noting that due to this service being mostly overlooked by transport planners, the wharves are somewhat substandard, without DDA accessibility in most cases.

It's sad that it's ending - it should be taken over as a regular government sponsored service, IMO, although I guess the appetite for subsidising ferries in that region is low given the demographics. Reducing the scope of an effective public transport service is always a loss, though.

If you're a ferry buff and haven't been on this service recently, I can definitely recommend having a ride on it before it finishes. The Lane Cove river is gorgeous and since no other ferries go this way, many ferry users not have spent much time up this way.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

Just looking back in the history, Charles Rosman took over Sydney Ferries Lane Cove River services in 1950. Noakes, the present owners of Rosmans, took over in 2008 and now Rosmans only does charter so I'm figuring they divested the river service after 2008. That would fit in with Captain Cook taking over.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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This reminds me, my only published letter to the editor in the SMH is a complaint on the subject of how little information was publicly available about this Lane Cove River ferry service, despite it being a government regulated service (and partially subsidised due to inclusion in the School Student Transport Scheme). A web search shows this letter was published on January 23, 2009, and refers to the operator as Matilda Cruises (was that always a Captain Cook brand name, or had it been separate at one point?).
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Swift »

Where's Handy Andy now? The river is a natural roadway. Why isn't he looking after his voters. It's a disgrace that it's been allowed to fall through the cracks. Why aren't the locals as keen on their ferry service as the Cremorne crowd? A different brand of snob?
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

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In 1997, Matilda Cruises was purchased by Amalgamated Holdings Limited (now Event Hospitality and Entertainment), who in 1998 also purchased Sail Venture Cruises, making Matilda the largest operator of charter vessels on Sydney Harbour. In November 2005, AHL sold Matilda Cruises to Captain Cook Cruises.
The name Matilda Cruises was used for some time after that but I think it has been dropped in the last few years.
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tonyp
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

jpp42 wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:36 pm This reminds me, my only published letter to the editor in the SMH is a complaint on the subject of how little information was publicly available about this Lane Cove River ferry service, despite it being a government regulated service (and partially subsidised due to inclusion in the School Student Transport Scheme). A web search shows this letter was published on January 23, 2009, and refers to the operator as Matilda Cruises (was that always a Captain Cook brand name, or had it been separate at one point?).
OK it looks like the river service was acquired by Matilda from Rosman (by then owned by Matthews and Williams) in the early 1990s. Matilda was acquired by Captain Cook in 2005 (as Fleet Lists writes).
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by boronia »

A convenient nostalgia trip appears to be the 3.25 PM service from CQ to Riverview, returning at 4.26.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Glen »

Anyone planning a relaxing afternoon outing on a round trip ride to farewell the service should keep in mind that (I think) it is already on the (even more) limited 'school holiday' timetable.................... so you might need to do some walking at one end.

https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 200101.pdf

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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Linto63 »

Swift wrote: We have a natural roadway and they choose to use a road system that has to traverse this roadway instead. Great going Sydney.
It is a premium service, Greenwich is already served by Sydney Ferries Cockatoo Island services while the other suburbs have direct city services, so no need for the government to prop up a service that isn't being used.

Service commenced in 1950 by Rosman after Sydney Ferries withdrew its services. Rosman operated until it ceased in April 1991 due to declining patronage. Matilda had restarted it by the late-1990s with River Rocket catamarans (not the current NQEA built vessels), with it being included in the sale of the the business to Captain Cook in 2005.
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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

It will be the end of 149 years (if they waited another month it would be 150) of almost continuous ferry operation on the Lane Cove River. Started by the Jouberts of Hunters Hill in 1871.

1925: now Sydney Ferries Ltd and the depot at Figtree House. Lady Denman is now in the maritime museum at Jervis Bay.

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Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Glen »

Some local correspondence on the subject:

https://inthecove.com.au/2020/12/04/wil ... k-cruises/
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