Ferry Observations 2020

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

It's the age-old tension between commuters and excursionists on the Manly ferry. Commuters want (and deserve) a faster, more frequent trip and excursionists are generally happy with a slower trip on a less frequent big boat. Marine technology has extracted all it possibly can from the double-ended displacement hull, with latest technology. Feathering screws enable the boat to get to 18 knots which can provide a trip of about 25 minutes or less, but, to achieve this, the second motor has to be brought on line which sends the financial equation through the roof, so they're generally run on one motor and that enables then to achieve a half-hour trip, or 40-45 minute turnaround. This performance currently delivers a capacity of 2,200 people per hour per direction, with some additional trips in peaks boosting that to 3,300 pphpd. That's pretty impressive, better than any bus line (including the showpony B Line) or the IWLR. However, commuters have to wait up to 30 minutes for a boat and the trip takes 30 minutes, which takes the shine off it.

The quest for an economical faster trip has been ongoing for a century and usually ends satisfying one criterion, but not the other, e.g. the hydrofoils. The advent of the modern multi-hulled boat has completely changed the game and delivers some extraordinary journey times while at the same time not having excessive operational costs. So we get to the Emerald variant designed for the Manly run, of which two are at sea (I don't know what the total order will be). These have a lot of pluses. Off the top of my head without looking it up, we will have a vessel with a capacity of 400 capable of a 20 minute trip. I'd say the turnaround time would be better than a Freshwater, maybe 5-10 minutes at worst, so it could theoretically be possible to run a boat every 10 minutes, delivering 2,400 pphpd. That would require five boats in service and one spare. More realistically, it might be a boat every 15 minutes, which would be 1,600 pphpd, which would be a minus, but although this falls short of the big boats' capacity, I presume that the big ferries are not in fact anywhere near full in peaks. On balance though, the faster journey time and greater frequency would be a huge plus for commuters.

I don't have enough information to address weekend excursionist peaks, but I assume that there may well be a capacity issue for the Emeralds in summer. Keeping 40 year-old big boats in service in addition to having new boats is a substantial financial indulgence that the average government agency shouldn't be contemplating. They don't do it with any other mode, except as heritage operations and this would be a super-expensive heritage operation. On this note, there's also the option of opening up discussions with the owners of "South Steyne", whom successive governments have treated so badly. This ship has in the recent past been fully equipped and certificated for public operation (including between CQ and Manly wharves) and it could be done again if the government clears a path through the bureaucracy. That would certainly tip the weekend scales to relieve the Emeralds. Failing that, keeping Collaroy would achieve the same but it's still an indulgence. Any solution involving one boat like that would mean that it's leaving each wharf only every 1:30 hours. The solution is not obvious and the government will doubtless being doing the figures right now.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11180
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Swift »

An excellent post Tony.
What about the well known swells. Freshwater 6m max, Emerald 4m.
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
With the left in charge the future is doomed.
So sick of transit hobbyist's superior attitudes.
NSW will never reach the level of greatness under Wran ever again.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:43 pm An excellent post Tony.
What about the well known swells. Freshwater 6m max, Emerald 4m.
I don't know enough about wave-piercing multihulls to comment on their performance, but I know that a number of the Incat ones overseas operate at sea. It's something where we'll have to see how the modified Emeralds perform. There's been plenty of development work and field experience with this technology and I'm sure they're not just taking a guess on it. After all, the Manly ferry started off being run by vessels the size of the Emeralds. The reason for the boats getting bigger over the years was not seaworthiness but capacity and the reason the capacity grew was because they couldn't make the trip any faster, so they weren't able to turn around more often to run more trips.

The zenith of performance with large capacity boats was with Dee Why, Curl Curl and South Steyne where they could run trips as fast as 20 minutes clearing holiday crowds at the rate of over 4,500 pphpd. That's awesome but so was the cost of running them like that, so it was something that was done only on crowded special occasions where there was a revenue flow to offset the cost. The Freshwaters were designed with the same operational flexibility. I've seen Freshwater on trials with both engines pushing it at 18 knots and it was like seeing Flash Gordon shoot past, but shovelling bank notes into furnaces is no way to run a PT operation regularly so they typically run on one engine only. Today, it costs at least a couple of hundred grand to prepare South Steyne for a day's operation and that's running on cheap recycled sump oil and a volunteer crew.

The Emeralds have a hell of a lot going for them on many fronts.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

It looks like they're going to do what I foresaw:
Manly ferry: Premier Gladys Berejiklian says Freshwater class replacements equals more tourists

Premier Gladys Berejiklian says removing the iconic Freshwater class ferries during the week will mean more tourists can get to Manly, not less.
Julie Cross
November 26, 2020 - 7:24PM
Manly Daily

Premier Gladys Berejiklian and Member for Manly James Griffin in Manly on Thursday, November 26, 2020. Picture: Supplied.

NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian has spoken out on the controversial move to only keep one of the iconic Freshwater class ferries for weekend use, saying it was a “practical” solution and about “finding the right balance”.

The Premier said she did not think removing the iconic vessel from the route during the week would be to the detriment of tourists, as suggested by worried Manly business leaders, but in fact will lead to an increase in tourists.

“I think people just love Manly and they will come every which way,” she told the Manly Daily during an event at the Sebel Hotel to thank community groups for their work during COVID.

“There will still be lots of ferry services, it just means they’ll be different.

“More people will be able to come because obviously you’ve got faster vessels and smaller vessels. So it actually means more tourists.”

Ms Berejiklian, who was born in Manly and spent a lot of time in the area growing up, said she understood how passionate and nostalgic people are about the Freshwater class ferry, but it was about balance.

“We need to find the right balance between making sure we get people to and from Manly, including the local residents, and making sure we keep the heritage and the nostalgia of the Freshwater class,” Ms Berejiklian said.

One of the Freshwater class ferries, Collaroy, on the F1 route. Picture: Justin Lloyd

“As long as the Freshwater is still in our lives I don’t think it matters too much if it’s the weekend or the weekday.”

It is expected that Transport for NSW will make an announcement shortly to confirm the Emerald class ferries will take over the route during the week, and just one Freshwater class ferry will be retained for use at weekends.

Minister Andrew Constance said last month that the Freshwater class was not being used enough and that it was expensive to maintain.

NSW Transport Minister Andrew Constance in Port Macquarie, where the smaller Manly ferries are being built. Pic Nathan Edwards

However, it appears the Liberal government could be in for quite a fight, with campaigners ramping up their efforts this week to reverse the decision to remove the Freshwater class ferry from the Manly route during the week.

Lead activist Cr Candy Bingham was today busy printing 30,000 ‘Save the Manly Ferries’ postcards for a letter drop in the Manly ward which will happen in the next couple of weeks.

Postcards will also be handed out to ferry passengers when they arrive in Manly.

Posters are also being printed to go up in shop windows in the CBD with a barcode which leads to Cr Bingham’s Good for Manly website where there is a page on the campaign.

“The Manly ferry is an Australian icon,” she said.

New ferries bound for Sydney including boats destined for the Manly route being loaded onto a transport vessel in Batam, Indonesia between 20th and 23rd of November., Photos: Aaron Colgan

“It is what people do when they come to Sydney, they go on the Manly ferry.

“Imagine going to London on a Wednesday and being told you can’t go on a red bus because they only operate on the weekends.”

Cr Bingham, said her campaign which is being backed by the Manly Business Chamber, said the new smaller Emerald class ferries would not be able to cope with the demand at weekends, public holidays and during the summer.

She called for people to sign a petition on the Good for Manly website which would automatically go to the NSW Parliament once it had 20,000 signatures.

She said the petition was calling for the NSW Government to cancel the decision to replace the Freshwater ferries in the week, proceed with the scheduled maintenance program and develop a fleet replacement plan for double-ended 1000 plus ferries on the F1 route.

President of the Manly Business Chamber Charlotte Rimmer said the view of businesses in the suburb was that they would prefer all four Freshwater class ferries remained.

However, she did say there could be room for compromise by having at least one large ferry in the week too.

“The Freshwater ferries are enormously important to Manly,” she said.

“Our businesses like to be supported by the locals, but our cream comes from tourism.”

MP James Griffin, said he supported the move to introduce faster, small vessels on the route, while retaining the larger ferry for weekends and tourism.

“I think the more fundamental question is how do we get tourists that come here to spend more money?” he said.
“Because the average spend with a tourist in Manly is 40 per cent the rest of Sydney.

“So really getting them here is one of part of the question, but how do we get them to spend?”
I'd guess at Collaroy, the youngest, being kept. (Named after a 19th century steamer than ran excursions to Manly and was shipwrecked .... at Collaroy.) So that will be a big boat every 90 minutes in weekends. I'm not confident that they have enough Emeralds in the fleet to do the job adequately yet.

The mistaken reference to being built in Port Macquarie obviously refers to Birden who have subcontracted out to China.

I reckon that underneath all the noise being generated, there are going to be a big lot of quiet daily commuters who will actually appreciate the quicker, more frequent trip. Their voices won't be heard in the political storm. In relation to tourists, I think there's more work to be done and they may well have to retain two Freshwaters as backup until it's fully sorted.

When I go to London, I avoid the red double deck buses like the plague. They're horrible!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

Now more detail - going along the lines I've suggested. (Am I the only one following this topic here?)
Manly ferry: One Freshwater Class boat to operate, remainder scrapped

The iconic Manly ferry will continue to grace Sydney Harbour for years to come, but only on certain days. Read the full details.
James O’Doherty
November 27, 2020 - 1:40PM
The Sunday Telegraph

A single Freshwater Class Manly Ferry will operate on weekends and public holidays but the remaining three boats could be sold potentially seeing them sunk or stripped for parts.

The newest Freshwater Class vessel, the Collaroy, will run every 1.5 hours on weekends and public holidays while smaller Emerald Class boats will operate commuter services to Manly every 15 minutes.

Transport Minister Andrew Constance committed to keeping the Collaroy in service permanently, following anger from unions, locals, and ferry lovers that the iconic Freshwater Class could be scrapped.

The government have announced one single Freshwater Class Manly Ferry will operate on weekends and public holidays. Picture: Justin Lloyd

“This government’s giving a commitment to run this ferry forever and a day, it’s not going to be taken off the harbour,” he said.

The move to keep one Manly ferry in service while running smaller, faster boats for commuters comes after a campaign from The Daily Telegraph to save the Sydney icon.

The Collaroy is the newest of the government’s four Freshwater Class ferries, and is not due for another service until 2023.

However when the ferry does need a major service it could cost between $3 million and $5 million to stay operational, senior public servant Steve Issa said.

The remaining three Freshwater Class boats will be retired from service on the F1 Manly route, and could be sold for private tours or sunk to create a diving attraction.

Mr Constance said “ideally” tourist operators will take the boats on, but he said “there might be a demand for parts”.

“There‘s a lot of sentiment attached to the freshwaters, and that’s what we’ve tried to compromise,” Mr Constance said.
The Collaroy vessel will not run on weekdays or even on school holidays.

Instead, a fleet of newer Emerald Class vessels will operate on the F1 route, bringing more frequent faster services.

“So the community will get the benefit of having the Freshwater still on the water, and then of course the benefit of actually having a faster service,” Mr Constance said.

The boats have been designed to operate in swells of up to 4.5 metres in order to handle rough water on the Manly route.

The government insists the current Freshwater Class ferry doesn’t run in swells larger than 4.5 metres because it is too uncomfortable for passengers, but the older boats do not have a formal limit at which they don’t operate.

However the Maritime Union of Australia’s Paul Garrett raised concerns the new foreign-built boats won’t be safe.

“The last four river vessels made in Indonesia can‘t get under bridges and (are) full of asbestos, (so) we’ll wait to test these ferries when they get on Sydney Harbour,” he said.

Manly MP James Griffin – who has been advocating for the Freshwater to remain in service – welcomed a commitment that one iconic boat will continue to operate.

“Long live the Freshwater Class ferry! From today it will be a sight that will remain on the Harbour for future generations to come,” he said.
More Coverage

However Northern Beaches Deputy Mayor Candy Bingham said the move to keep only one Freshwater vessel running on weekends and public holidays wasn’t good enough.

“The world class Manly ferries have to remain, we cannot just scrap them to save a few dollars,” she said.
So 15 minute headways will deliver 1,600 pphpd. I assume the big boats are mostly far from full, so this will now be fuller boats. If the turnarounds are quick this could be three boats. Are there more coming or will they use other Emeralds when the sea is calmer? Still some unanswered questions.

How many daily commuters are going to complain about 15 minute service instead of 30 and 20 minute trip instead of 30, for the same fare? Those campaigners aren't on a winning wicket there. The weekend tourists will be hanging around CQ for 90 minutes waiting for a ride on Collaroy which will then be filled with passengers to biblical levels like the ark.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19756
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by boronia »

So the Collaroy is ticketed to 2023? That's just over 2 years away.

In that time the tourists will endear themselves to the iconic E2 ferries. A few months out of service "for maintenance" and it might quietly disappear?

I'm surprised the government isn't leveraging the Collaroy's "iconic" status to charge a higher fare for the ride. People are quite happy to do this with steam train rides and red rattlers.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 2:28 pm So the Collaroy is ticketed to 2023? That's just over 2 years away.

In that time the tourists will endear themselves to the iconic E2 ferries. A few months out of service "for maintenance" and it might quietly disappear?

I'm surprised the government isn't leveraging the Collaroy's "iconic" status to charge a higher fare for the ride. People are quite happy to do this with steam train rides and red rattlers.
Yes the Emeralds will be iconic one day. It's a cycle. The premium fare would be the ticket to introduce South Steyne into the equation if it didn't intrude into Transdev's contract by pinching their passengers and run foul of the MUA because of volunteer crew. I agree that I can't see Collaroy lasting that long and her sisters would be cannibalised for parts which would reduce their resale value.

I didn't know they stopped the Freshwaters if the passengers got too uncomfortable. Wow, any excuse for bustitution! They never stopped the old boats unless the swell into North Harbour got so bad that they would bash the wharf to pieces. I always felt that the Freshwaters would be more lively in a sea because of the different stability calculations prevailing since earlier in the century. They appear to ride on top of waves more than the old boats which rode deeper. It will be most interesting to see how the wave-piercing Emeralds perform in a big sea. The point of coming about on the tip of that V out to sea is the exciting moment.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
captainch
Posts: 4566
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 2:37 am
Favourite Vehicle: was 3533 m/o 687
Location: INGHAM NTH QLD.

SAD DAY FOR MANLY FERRYS.

Post by captainch »

ANNOUNCED ON 7 NEWS TONIGHT 1 FRESHWATER CLASS FERRY TO BE KEPT FOR WEEK-ENDS and the others sunkas fish reefs WHY DOESN'T THIS GOVT LISTEN TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC! THE transport minister saying the public want smaller faster ferrys ASK THE TOURIST WHO COME TO SYDNEY WHAT THEY WANT!
"CAPTAIN.C.H Still lives" :twisted: :shock: "JUST"
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 21736
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Fleet Lists »

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... ry-secured

Future for Freshwater ferry secured
Published27 Nov 2020

Ferry lovers will be able to enjoy Freshwater services on weekends after the NSW Government confirmed its plan to retain one of the four iconic vessels.

Minister for Transport Andrew Constance said the decision was about balancing the needs of customers and NSW taxpayers, while acknowledging the community’s strong attachment to the Freshwater class ferries.

“We are pressing ahead with upgrades to our ferry fleet to ensure the needs of our customers are met into the future,” Mr Constance said.

“However, like any good government should, we are willing to listen to the community and adapt our plans to get better outcomes for all. Our decision means customers can continue to get on board and ride a Freshwater over the next few years which is great news for the many people who hold them so dear.”

Of the four Freshwater vessels currently operating between Circular Quay and Manly, the Collaroy, which is the youngest in the fleet, will be kept on the Harbour until 2023.

Mr Constance said the retiring Freshwater ferries will be replaced with a new generation of Emerald class ferries which will better suit the needs of customers in the future.

“The Freshwater class hold a lot of fond memories for many but it’s important we keep pace with demand by continuing to modernise our fleet in line with many other leading ferry networks around the world.

“Operating Emerald class vessels will allow us to add more weekly services for customers on the F1 Manly route which is much needed considering it’s the busiest in the country.

“The new ferries also offer better value for money and will enable savings of around $6 million a year. They will also be fully accessible and more energy efficient,” Mr Constance said.

Planning is continuing into the future use of the remaining three vessels and at the appropriate time, the NSW Government will consult with private tourism and heritage operators, who are interested in operating and maintaining the Freshwater ferries.
Contrary to a previous post, the three not retained are not initially to be sunk
Living in the Shire.
User avatar
Bus 400
Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:23 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by Bus 400 »

The Railways are worried about their jobs.

But wouldn't the Emerald MkII actually result in job losses? First up there'd be less staff on the ferries. But less staff would be required at CQ & Manly, they'd only be required at one level.

Unless they're going to deploy staff on bridge watch on the Parramatta River.

Sent from my SM-A716B using Tapatalk

ay7744
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:22 pm
Favourite Vehicle: HSV GTSR W1
Location: Northern Beaches

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by ay7744 »

https://www.facebook.com/JamesGriffinMP ... 473457352
"Furthermore, on our busiest days in summer an additional Emerald Class will operate and services will be delivered every 8.5 mins providing 7 trips an hour, moving 2800 customers per hour per direction."

This must mean the existing Emerald class fleet will be deployed on the F1 Manly route alongside the 3 new Emerald class vessels during weekends.
Custom Bus Group > Volgren
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

It's worth quoting James Griffin MP's post in full as it cuts through some of the rubbish that's being written. It reminds me of the metro knockers comparing train seating capacity on a train for train basis when the actual comparison should be seats per hour. Similar with ferry capacity. The new proposed weekday and weekend timetables sound fabulous, something that the Manly ferry operators have been trying to achieve for the last century but could only dream about. Some people have some truly cockeyed views on this subject - again reminds me of the metro. Faster, more frequent? No way, rational thinking not allowed here.
Ferry update: Freshwater Ferry will service Manly every weekend, year round and on Public Holidays.
The new Emerald Class will service commuters during the week.
👉🏼 The Emerald Class has:
- outdoor seating
- carries 400
- green and gold.
- Two wide walk-around decks
- Accessibility for the less mobile and young families
- Bicycle and luggage storage
- Wi-fi access
- Real time journey information
- 12 wheelchair spaces
- Rapid and safe boarding
- Reduced travel times
You can learn more about the boat here: http://www.beyondthewharf.com.au/emerald-class/
What happens to the other Freshwater Class ferry?
Planning is continuing into the future use of the remaining three vessels and at the appropriate time, the NSW Government will consult with private tourism and heritage operators, who are interested in operating and maintaining the Freshwater ferries.
I realise some people will be unhappy about this compromise.
👇🏼 Further facts and information:
Manly Ferry Patronage:
Between 2017 and 2019, patronage on the Freshwater Manly to Circular Quay Route has declined by around 15 per cent.
The busiest Freshwater Manly service during the AM Peak (the 8:00 departure from Manly) carries only 280 customers on average per weekday (pre-COVID)
There is not one weekday service outside of the summer peak where average demand exceeds 400 customers.
Weekends:
On average weekend patronage on the Freshwater Manly to Circular Quay Route has declined by around 12 per cent between 2017 and 2019.
Isn’t a Freshwater more effective in larger swells?:
There is a misconception that the Emeralds can’t handle conditions around Sydney Heads. These vessels have been purpose built to operate the Manly to Circular Quay route.
Matter of fact, there are currently six Emeralds in the fleet and these often travel to Manly today when a Freshwater is unavailable.
While the Freshwater class vessels can in theory operate in swells of over 4.5 metres, it is very rare that ferry services will operate in these conditions for customer comfort reasons.
There are also some conditions, such as when there is a high frequency of waves near a dock, where the Emeralds will be able to operate while the larger Freshwater could not.
Summer crowds:
During the busy summer period, in addition to the Freshwater on the weekend, the new Emerald Class vessels will operate every 10 mins on everyday and move up to 2400 customers per direction per hour.
Furthermore, on our busiest days in summer an additional Emerald Class will operate and services will be delivered every 8.5 mins providing 7 trips an hour, moving 2800 customers per hour per direction.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
hornetfig
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:24 pm

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by hornetfig »

Additional Emerald class will however contribute to the congestion at the mouth of Circular Quay where all the cats have to U-turn because they're single-ended.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

They do their turn at the end of the wharf quite neatly as far as I can see. You won't get this sort of performance with a double-ended boat. The double-ended days are over.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19756
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:32 am It's worth quoting James Griffin MP's post in full as it cuts through some of the rubbish that's being written. It reminds me of the metro knockers comparing train seating capacity on a train for train basis when the actual comparison should be seats per hour. Similar with ferry capacity. The new proposed weekday and weekend timetables sound fabulous, something that the Manly ferry operators have been trying to achieve for the last century but could only dream about. Some people have some truly cockeyed views on this subject - again reminds me of the metro. Faster, more frequent? No way, rational thinking not allowed here.
I just don't understand why Gladys/Constance never bother to respond to all these silly claims from Labor MPs and the media, with plain fact explanations.

My response these days to the ongoing "too wide" NCIFs is to point out that Labor designed and ordered the Oscars in Newcastle, and that these are also too wide to operate on BMT, but they just hid the problem, leaving LNP to fix up.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:01 pm
I just don't understand why Gladys/Constance never bother to respond to all these silly claims from Labor MPs and the media, with plain fact explanations.

My response these days to the ongoing "too wide" NCIFs is to point out that Labor designed and ordered the Oscars in Newcastle, and that these are also too wide to operate on BMT, but they just hid the problem, leaving LNP to fix up.
This statement on the ferries might be the first example of TfNSW actually not assuming people are stupid and getting down to explain the detail and reasoning behind the decisions. Maybe things are starting to look up in spin doctor land.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
swtt
Posts: 5509
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by swtt »

Often the loudest drown out the facts. No matter how reasonable the facts are.

Most Manly residents who would be far more frequent users of the ferries are probably celebrating quietly and couldn't wait for the day when the Emerald class take over. But they won't be coming out in praise of the government or TfNSW - they'll just quietly enjoy the spoils of finally being able to catch the ferry and have the trip counted towards their Opal reward (instead of taking the fast ferry)
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19756
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by boronia »

If Constance wants to get private operators interested in buying some of the Freshwaters for tourist use, wouldn't the Collaroy have the most potential?

Mightn't customers pay a premium for an "outside" excursion, subject to weather conditions?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
BroadGauge
Posts: 3675
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 1:20 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Car
Location: NSW

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by BroadGauge »

For the role that it plays as a the public transport service for the area, and for the wider Northern Beaches area, the Manly Ferry has a frequency similar to a local suburban bus route. Never runs more often than 30 minutely, drops back to 45 minutely after 8pm and waits until well after the sun has risen to get going on a weekend.

If the service level is substantially increased then I doubt that the locals (as opposed to the tourists) would care about the ferries being smaller. As it is at the moment, the most far flung parts of the suburban rail network still have more frequent services after dark from the CBD than Manly gets, in some cases up to 3x more frequent!
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

BroadGauge wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 2:23 pm For the role that it plays as a the public transport service for the area, and for the wider Northern Beaches area, the Manly Ferry has a frequency similar to a local suburban bus route. Never runs more often than 30 minutely, drops back to 45 minutely after 8pm and waits until well after the sun has risen to get going on a weekend.

If the service level is substantially increased then I doubt that the locals (as opposed to the tourists) would care about the ferries being smaller. As it is at the moment, the most far flung parts of the suburban rail network still have more frequent services after dark from the CBD than Manly gets, in some cases up to 3x more frequent!
Well it's the first time in 165 years that the technology has been economically available to unleash the full potential of the service. The fast mutlihull vessel has transformed local ferry services, as much as the metro has transformed commuter train services. The faster journey time combined with much shorter waits (therefore overall quicker point to point times) might actually have the effect of winning some Manly area commuters back from the buses and halt the decline in ferry patronage. If it was possible to convert Manly wharf to a pontoon wharf, service cancellations due to swell might be significantly reduced too.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by tonyp »

It looks as though there are three Emeralds on that ship bound for Australia, not two:

https://www.portnews.com.au/story/70293 ... SyLV-UsoAw

Built without supervision in China - I hope they don't have too much to fix up at Port Macquarie! I hope it will also be the end of acquiring any future public transport stock from China.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19756
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Ferry Observations 2020

Post by boronia »

Unless you live in a very small catchment area around Manly, I wonder how much time advantage there would be over catching a bus direct to the city?

As we've seen with the ESR and L2/3 trams, there is resistance to transferring, even if there is a time benefit.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
Linto63
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Freshwater Class in Doubt.

Post by Linto63 »

Swift wrote: Heard on the radio that Andrew Constance wants to decommission the Freshwater class and replace them with smaller new ferries to save six million bucks. He claims they have reached the end of their life (like he'd know) and services will be able to increase with the smaller ferries.
They are 35 - 40 years old, so they are getting on. That said, the Baragoola still bobs away in Balls Head Bay 98 years after it was launched which would suggest that were there the will, they could go a bit further yet. Problem is that those who are now campaigning for them to be retained are too late, they needed to make their case before the contract was signed a few years ago, not as the replacements are just about to arrive.
tonyp wrote: When I go to London, I avoid the red double deck buses like the plague. They're horrible!
London double deckers are fine, but then if you just don't like double deckers period, then nothing will come up to standard.
tonyp wrote: Yes the Emeralds will be iconic one day. It's a cycle.
Not likely, things become iconic because through a combination of their uniqueness, technology and longevity. Things like the AEC Routemaster, Boeing 747 and XPT are iconic. The Emeralds are just bog standard off the shelf ferries that can be seen around the world.
tonyp wrote: I didn't know they stopped the Freshwaters if the passengers got too uncomfortable. Wow, any excuse for bustitution!
No, Sydney Ferries have a safety case and they have to operate within it, ignore it and they void their insurance. The hairy chested, she'll be right days are long gone.
tonyp wrote: They do their turn at the end of the wharf quite neatly as far as I can see.
Can't back out from adjacent wharves simultaneously.
boronia wrote: I just don't understand why Gladys/Constance never bother to respond to all these silly claims from Labor MPs and the media, with plain fact explanations.
Constance has a bit of a tin ear when it comes to ferries, remember the Ferry McFerry face fiasco? And Gladys seems quite distracted as the teflon coating wears off.
boronia wrote: My response these days to the ongoing "too wide" NCIFs is to point out that Labor designed and ordered the Oscars in Newcastle, and that these are also too wide to operate on BMT.
Oscars were never intended to operate on the BMT, so wasn't an issue.
boronia wrote: If Constance wants to get private operators interested in buying some of the Freshwaters for tourist use, wouldn't the Collaroy have the most potential?
Presumably on the basis that it retains its ocean going capability? IIRC this was removed many years ago. With a glut of charter vessels likely to come onto the market, unlikely there will be much demand for such large vessels.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19756
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Freshwater Class in Doubt.

Post by boronia »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:52 pm
boronia wrote: If Constance wants to get private operators interested in buying some of the Freshwaters for tourist use, wouldn't the Collaroy have the most potential?
Presumably on the basis that it retains its ocean going capability? IIRC this was removed many years ago. With a glut of charter vessels likely to come onto the market, unlikely there will be much demand for such large vessels.
Information on other ferry sites suggests this equipmemt is still fully operational and gets tested and maintained at each dry docking.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9842
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Freshwater Class in Doubt.

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:52 pm London double deckers are fine, but then if you just don't like double deckers period, then nothing will come up to standard.
I've used London buses, as well as buses in Europe, USA and Australia for daily commuting so I know them intimately. The London double-deckers are small, cramped, slow and with long dwell times. They are as bad as buses can get. If you want to get anywhere in a reasonable time in London you use the underground. They have a lot in common with the Freshwaters as "icons" - they're highly identifiable as an iconic image of the city but if you don't want a slow journey, they're not the regular commuter's first choice. The difference between them and the Freshwaters is that they're at the opposite ends of comfort spectrum to ride in. I'm not against double deckers, they just need to be used appropriately - on services like the B Line.

Collaroy has little extra on board for ocean cruising, basically roll chocks and a more advanced radar. Perhaps the passenger capacity is reduced to comply with SOLAS requirements, as it was for South Steyne.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”