But it adds green credentials which many governments are chasing.tonyp wrote: An electric bus is just another bus. It doesn't add another dimension to the range of capacity solutions. .
We may have to agree to disagree, but its one of those projects that if the government had its time again, it probably would not have bothered with. It hasn't been the game changer that its supporters claimed it would be.STMPainter2018 wrote: ↑I’ll agree that it’s been badly planned and implemented but I will call bull that it was ill-conceived dog.
While wanting a light rail line has been the in'thing for the past 20 years with many Australian cities and regions putting their hand up, this has waned with proposed systems in Hobart, Maroochydore, Perth and Rockingham having either been formally cancelled or gone quiet.tonyp wrote: ↑I certainly don't think light rail has seen its time in smaller to medium cities where it is an excellent solution to the need for extra capacity without having to go to building a train system. New systems will continue to boom in such cities.
The problem with George Street was that it was choked with buses because every service used to go through to Circular Quay. All that was needed was to reduce the number and turn services around at the cbd fringes as was done in 2015. On the UNSW shuttle it will replace a handful of buses and it's not going to be able to move people from the SCG on the same scale as the Olympic Park line from Stadium Australia meaning buses will still be required, hence why the bus interchange was built.tonyp wrote: ↑CSELR does a decent job as it stands. It's very popular and useful as a CBD circulator, it's higher-capacity than the buses as a UNSW shuttle and it provides a useful events shuttle, albeit a little down on capacity, but every additional bit helps.
Probably because the penny has dropped that it isn't practical. Buses having to shuffle into a right hand turn lane and then queue to enter, and then negotiate their way back into the left hand lane when exiting adds a fair bit of time. This would be exasperated by buses running in multiple. A route 400 service from UNSW to Maroubra Junction is noticeably slower than other services as a result. Those wanting to interchange can do so at UNSW where the bus stop and tram platform are parallel, at least in the citybound direction.tonyp wrote: ↑One thing I wish they would get going is to run the Anzac Pde buses through the Kingsford tram interchange. That would give an indication of commuters' appetite for interchanging and, at the very least, would introduce some convenience into the bus stop arrangements around Juniors. I can't understand why they haven't done it.
But electric buses don't provide the transport solution that trams provide. They offer the same capacity as the equivalent diesel bus. I can't get over the number of comments I see in media stories (some people still bang on about it in Gold Coast) that "they should have got electric buses instead of trams". People just don't don't comprehend the capacity (passengers per hour) thing.
A "trackless tram" is a bus, with the disadvantage that it ruts the pavement along which it is guided, leading to expensive ongoing "perway" maintenance. Might as well have rails which can carry the axle load without failing. The other issue that Australian "trackless tram" advocates overlook is that the mode is extremely unlikely to pass regulatory approval in Australia, where it's hard enough even getting buses that push the boundaries of axle loads and length approved. Look at the Brisbane "metro". It only gets approved because it's confined to its own dedicated roadway separate from general traffic, even to the extend of being separated in order to get to the depot. This too will suffer from pavement failure at the usual points, particularly where braking and acceleration occur at stops. There are good reasons for rails.
There's an analysis process interposed between an idea to have a light rail line and a final decision. Under my rule-of-thumb, this should have found that the populations of Hobart, Sunshine Coast and certainly Rockingham are such that a bus system is sufficient, though Sunshine Coast does seem to be approaching a threshold. Perth is of a size that a progressively denser rail coverage (which is what they're building), supported by a bus system, will do the job. It's unfortunate that UWA and Curtin University are in locations that are basically impossible to service by rail (UWA used to have trams, the location of the huge Curtin Univ was a planning blunder), but they will just have to cobble together solutions as best they can with articulated buses.Linto63 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:15 am While wanting a light rail line has been the in'thing for the past 20 years with many Australian cities and regions putting their hand up, this has waned with proposed systems in Hobart, Maroochydore, Perth and Rockingham having either been formally cancelled or gone quiet.......it's not going to be able to move people from the SCG on the same scale as the Olympic Park line from Stadium Australia meaning buses will still be required, hence why the bus interchange was built.
They must have analysed all that when the whole system was conceived and designed. The point is that there is now a costly piece of infrastructure that needs to be used. It's not a good look to build something like that and not use it. Perhaps the compromise way forward is to keep the express buses on Anzac Pde and run all other buses through the interchange. Something has to be done because the present location of the nearby kerbside bus stops is absolutely terrible. The outward bus stop encourages people to run across the road lanes and tram track between the bus stop and the tram - it should be beside the pedestrian crossing outside Juniors. The inward bus stop way down south of Hayward St with a 300 metre gap to the interchange via convoluted pedestrian crossing arrangements (four crossings) is a complete shocker.Linto63 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:15 amProbably because the penny has dropped that it isn't practical. Buses having to shuffle into a right hand turn lane and then queue to enter, and then negotiate their way back into the left hand lane when exiting adds a fair bit of time. This would be exasperated by buses running in multiple. A route 400 service from UNSW to Maroubra Junction is noticeably slower than other services as a result. Those wanting to interchange can do so at UNSW where the bus stop and tram platform are parallel, at least in the citybound direction.
Presumably, but doesn't mean they didn't come to the wrong conclusion.tonyp wrote: ↑They must have analysed all that when the whole system was conceived and designed.
No point in using something just for the sake of it if it causes more problems than it solves. Best just to accept that it is a white elephant.tonyp wrote: ↑ The point is that there is now a costly piece of infrastructure that needs to be used.
The original plans for the Southern Suburbs Railway would supposedly have resulted in the construction of an underground station at Rockingham City Shopping Centre, whereas the more direct route ultimately built (i.e. two underground stations in the City) necessitated a less-expensive option some distance from the shops, and a means by which to connect the station with the Beach (enter the 555 and 'RCCTS' buses).
But for a population of about 15,000 it's seriously not worth it. On the other hand, for 50,000 students plus staff at Curtin University (one of the largest in Australia), transport is a big issue.Merc1107 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:08 pm The original plans for the Southern Suburbs Railway would supposedly have resulted in the construction of an underground station at Rockingham City Shopping Centre, whereas the more direct route ultimately built (i.e. two underground stations in the City) necessitated a less-expensive option some distance from the shops, and a means by which to connect the station with the Beach (enter the 555 and 'RCCTS' buses).
Provisions for a future light-rail have been included in part of the busway leaving the railway station, and much of the Bus-Priority around Rockingham is supposedly designed to reduce the cost of a future light rail's construction (in fact, it seems to be one of the only places in Perth where there is true bus priority!).
Perth's new(ish) rail links (ie: both the Mandurah and the Joondalup lines) are simply extensions of the traditional suburban rail network. (such as the Leppington line extension in Western Sydney)
Other way around: bus feeders and car parks are there to support the rail lines.Geo101 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:49 pm
Perth's new(ish) rail links (ie: both the Mandurah and the Joondalup lines) are simply extensions of the traditional suburban rail network. (such as the Leppington line extension in Western Sydney)
Stations are well-spaced, and are basically only there to support bus feeder services/commuter car parks, etc. It's seriously not a metro design. Even the new airport line (aside from the airport station itself) hasn't been designed as a metro service.
The chances of a tram/LR system stacking up in Perth anytime in the near future are next to zilch.
They don't have anything like existing busways (old tramways), nor any high patronage centers such as UNSW or Moore Park in close proximity of the CBD?
You think Perth has narrow streets for trams? Try this!tonyp wrote: ↑Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:39 pm The main issue I see in inserting trams in Perth is the extraordinarily narrow streets and roads. You think Sydney has narrow streets - go west. Trams can go along narrow streets for sure, but it throws up a number of issues if they have to share with traffic and both regularly block each other.
