New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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moa999
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by moa999 »


tonyp wrote: An electric bus is just another bus. It doesn't add another dimension to the range of capacity solutions. .
But it adds green credentials which many governments are chasing.

And it's a lot lot cheaper, quicker and less disruptive to get up than light rail.

Will there still be light rail rolled out. Absolutely. It works for certain tasks, but it's less than it was.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Cazza »

Trackless trams will hopefully be a more widespread, happy medium, providing clean, green travel (like electric buses) but with the capacity of a tram (negating the need for mass disruptions to implement light rail infrastructure).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

STMPainter2018 wrote: I’ll agree that it’s been badly planned and implemented but I will call bull that it was ill-conceived dog.
We may have to agree to disagree, but its one of those projects that if the government had its time again, it probably would not have bothered with. It hasn't been the game changer that its supporters claimed it would be.
tonyp wrote: I certainly don't think light rail has seen its time in smaller to medium cities where it is an excellent solution to the need for extra capacity without having to go to building a train system. New systems will continue to boom in such cities.
While wanting a light rail line has been the in'thing for the past 20 years with many Australian cities and regions putting their hand up, this has waned with proposed systems in Hobart, Maroochydore, Perth and Rockingham having either been formally cancelled or gone quiet.
tonyp wrote: CSELR does a decent job as it stands. It's very popular and useful as a CBD circulator, it's higher-capacity than the buses as a UNSW shuttle and it provides a useful events shuttle, albeit a little down on capacity, but every additional bit helps.
The problem with George Street was that it was choked with buses because every service used to go through to Circular Quay. All that was needed was to reduce the number and turn services around at the cbd fringes as was done in 2015. On the UNSW shuttle it will replace a handful of buses and it's not going to be able to move people from the SCG on the same scale as the Olympic Park line from Stadium Australia meaning buses will still be required, hence why the bus interchange was built.
tonyp wrote: One thing I wish they would get going is to run the Anzac Pde buses through the Kingsford tram interchange. That would give an indication of commuters' appetite for interchanging and, at the very least, would introduce some convenience into the bus stop arrangements around Juniors. I can't understand why they haven't done it.
Probably because the penny has dropped that it isn't practical. Buses having to shuffle into a right hand turn lane and then queue to enter, and then negotiate their way back into the left hand lane when exiting adds a fair bit of time. This would be exasperated by buses running in multiple. A route 400 service from UNSW to Maroubra Junction is noticeably slower than other services as a result. Those wanting to interchange can do so at UNSW where the bus stop and tram platform are parallel, at least in the citybound direction.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

moa999 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:11 pm
But it adds green credentials which many governments are chasing.

And it's a lot lot cheaper, quicker and less disruptive to get up than light rail.

Will there still be light rail rolled out. Absolutely. It works for certain tasks, but it's less than it was.
But electric buses don't provide the transport solution that trams provide. They offer the same capacity as the equivalent diesel bus. I can't get over the number of comments I see in media stories (some people still bang on about it in Gold Coast) that "they should have got electric buses instead of trams". People just don't don't comprehend the capacity (passengers per hour) thing.
Cazza wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:19 pm Trackless trams will hopefully be a more widespread, happy medium, providing clean, green travel (like electric buses) but with the capacity of a tram (negating the need for mass disruptions to implement light rail infrastructure).
A "trackless tram" is a bus, with the disadvantage that it ruts the pavement along which it is guided, leading to expensive ongoing "perway" maintenance. Might as well have rails which can carry the axle load without failing. The other issue that Australian "trackless tram" advocates overlook is that the mode is extremely unlikely to pass regulatory approval in Australia, where it's hard enough even getting buses that push the boundaries of axle loads and length approved. Look at the Brisbane "metro". It only gets approved because it's confined to its own dedicated roadway separate from general traffic, even to the extend of being separated in order to get to the depot. This too will suffer from pavement failure at the usual points, particularly where braking and acceleration occur at stops. There are good reasons for rails.
Linto63 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:15 am While wanting a light rail line has been the in'thing for the past 20 years with many Australian cities and regions putting their hand up, this has waned with proposed systems in Hobart, Maroochydore, Perth and Rockingham having either been formally cancelled or gone quiet.......it's not going to be able to move people from the SCG on the same scale as the Olympic Park line from Stadium Australia meaning buses will still be required, hence why the bus interchange was built.
There's an analysis process interposed between an idea to have a light rail line and a final decision. Under my rule-of-thumb, this should have found that the populations of Hobart, Sunshine Coast and certainly Rockingham are such that a bus system is sufficient, though Sunshine Coast does seem to be approaching a threshold. Perth is of a size that a progressively denser rail coverage (which is what they're building), supported by a bus system, will do the job. It's unfortunate that UWA and Curtin University are in locations that are basically impossible to service by rail (UWA used to have trams, the location of the huge Curtin Univ was a planning blunder), but they will just have to cobble together solutions as best they can with articulated buses.

I knew from early days that a modern French-style tram operation wasn't going to cut it on events services to Moore Park and Randwick (unlike the old Sydney system which was designed and operated for railway-level crowd movement), but the situation is that a metro line with two costly stations through the precinct that would be rarely used cannot be justified and that buses alone don't cut it, so the light rail does help in a significant way when run in conjunction with buses.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Linto63 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:15 amProbably because the penny has dropped that it isn't practical. Buses having to shuffle into a right hand turn lane and then queue to enter, and then negotiate their way back into the left hand lane when exiting adds a fair bit of time. This would be exasperated by buses running in multiple. A route 400 service from UNSW to Maroubra Junction is noticeably slower than other services as a result. Those wanting to interchange can do so at UNSW where the bus stop and tram platform are parallel, at least in the citybound direction.
They must have analysed all that when the whole system was conceived and designed. The point is that there is now a costly piece of infrastructure that needs to be used. It's not a good look to build something like that and not use it. Perhaps the compromise way forward is to keep the express buses on Anzac Pde and run all other buses through the interchange. Something has to be done because the present location of the nearby kerbside bus stops is absolutely terrible. The outward bus stop encourages people to run across the road lanes and tram track between the bus stop and the tram - it should be beside the pedestrian crossing outside Juniors. The inward bus stop way down south of Hayward St with a 300 metre gap to the interchange via convoluted pedestrian crossing arrangements (four crossings) is a complete shocker.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: They must have analysed all that when the whole system was conceived and designed.
Presumably, but doesn't mean they didn't come to the wrong conclusion.
tonyp wrote: The point is that there is now a costly piece of infrastructure that needs to be used.
No point in using something just for the sake of it if it causes more problems than it solves. Best just to accept that it is a white elephant.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by tonyp »

It's not just for the sake of it. Commuters need to have the option and convenience offered by such a facility at a key point in the system if it's there. You could argue for southbound buses bypassing it if the kerbside bus stop were relocated outside Juniors, but there is absolutely no convenient bus stop solution possible for northbound buses other than running through the interchange. I have watched similar facilities in action (like Victoria Park transfer station in Perth) and they work very smoothly. I've never seen any queuing up, because each route has its own stop. My feeling is that they just should do it, but it looks like they're waiting till the service review.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Linto63 »

Maybe in the fullness of time other services will use the interchange, I have merely offered a plausible suggestion as to why it may not be being used, if you really need to know, ring them up.

All northbound services from Maroubra Junction continue at least as far as High Street, Randwick so there is the option of changing at UNSW where the bus stop is directly opposite, although not so convenient southbound where the bus stop is about 100 metres to the south.

To access the interchange southbound services queue with other traffic in the right hand turn lane into Gardners Road, If they don't get through in the next traffic light phase, the minutes start to add up.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Talkingplanning6 »

The possible idea of what stage 1 Eastern Suburb's bus region should look like.....

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... sp=sharing
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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There are two right turn lanes there. They could make the left hand one buses only rather than shared.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Must be the children of the Edgcliff designers responsible!
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

The express services will be using the tram lines, so with first/last stop Kingsford, they will not have to worry about turning lanes or diverging. Other northbound services could follow the 400 arrangement to exit at Meek St.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Linto63 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:15 am ... this has waned with proposed systems in Hobart, Maroochydore, Perth and Rockingham having either been formally cancelled or gone quiet.
The original plans for the Southern Suburbs Railway would supposedly have resulted in the construction of an underground station at Rockingham City Shopping Centre, whereas the more direct route ultimately built (i.e. two underground stations in the City) necessitated a less-expensive option some distance from the shops, and a means by which to connect the station with the Beach (enter the 555 and 'RCCTS' buses).

Provisions for a future light-rail have been included in part of the busway leaving the railway station, and much of the Bus-Priority around Rockingham is supposedly designed to reduce the cost of a future light rail's construction (in fact, it seems to be one of the only places in Perth where there is true bus priority!).
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Merc1107 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:08 pm The original plans for the Southern Suburbs Railway would supposedly have resulted in the construction of an underground station at Rockingham City Shopping Centre, whereas the more direct route ultimately built (i.e. two underground stations in the City) necessitated a less-expensive option some distance from the shops, and a means by which to connect the station with the Beach (enter the 555 and 'RCCTS' buses).

Provisions for a future light-rail have been included in part of the busway leaving the railway station, and much of the Bus-Priority around Rockingham is supposedly designed to reduce the cost of a future light rail's construction (in fact, it seems to be one of the only places in Perth where there is true bus priority!).
But for a population of about 15,000 it's seriously not worth it. On the other hand, for 50,000 students plus staff at Curtin University (one of the largest in Australia), transport is a big issue.

For comparison, Randwick LGA has a population of about 150,000 (expected to head well north of 200,000 with redevelopment in the south), the normal enrolment at UNSW is about 56,000 (plus staff), the Randwick hospital campus (comprising three hospitals) has several thousand staff and an innumerable flow of patients and visitors and significant events at Moore Park and Randwick Racecourse can have a crowd of 50,000 or more each (though rarely that size normally). The bare minimum need is a tram system (and that was helpfully ripped up 60 years ago) and the scales have now tipped to needing metro lines.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Geo101 »

tonyp wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:53 am
Perth is of a size that a progressively denser rail coverage (which is what they're building), supported by a bus system, will do the job.
Perth's new(ish) rail links (ie: both the Mandurah and the Joondalup lines) are simply extensions of the traditional suburban rail network. (such as the Leppington line extension in Western Sydney)

Stations are well-spaced, and are basically only there to support bus feeder services/commuter car parks, etc. It's seriously not a metro design. Even the new airport line (aside from the airport station itself) hasn't been designed as a metro service.

The chances of a tram/LR system stacking up in Perth anytime in the near future are next to zilch.

They don't have anything like existing busways (old tramways), nor any high patronage centers such as UNSW or Moore Park in close proximity of the CBD?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Geo101 wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:49 pm
Perth's new(ish) rail links (ie: both the Mandurah and the Joondalup lines) are simply extensions of the traditional suburban rail network. (such as the Leppington line extension in Western Sydney)

Stations are well-spaced, and are basically only there to support bus feeder services/commuter car parks, etc. It's seriously not a metro design. Even the new airport line (aside from the airport station itself) hasn't been designed as a metro service.

The chances of a tram/LR system stacking up in Perth anytime in the near future are next to zilch.

They don't have anything like existing busways (old tramways), nor any high patronage centers such as UNSW or Moore Park in close proximity of the CBD?
Other way around: bus feeders and car parks are there to support the rail lines.

Mandurah and Joondalup lines are old hat now, The filling-in to which I refer is the current projects to Ellenbrook, Thornlie to Cockburn Central and Airport-Forestfield and there's more to come in the long term.

Perth's rail is a rapid transit system, like a metro. Much quibbling over terminology inevitably ensues but the product has more in common with a metro than with the suburban systems of the east coast. Still, they call it a suburban system over there, but it differs from the east coast systems in its all-stops operation and its much higher commercial speeds, both of which are typically on a par with Sydney Metro operation.

The main issue I see in inserting trams in Perth is the extraordinarily narrow streets and roads. You think Sydney has narrow streets - go west. Trams can go along narrow streets for sure, but it throws up a number of issues if they have to share with traffic and both regularly block each other. The option of mass demolition of roadside property to widen wouldn't win hearts and minds, either with the public or Treasury.

Bus routes 950 and 960 would be among the busiest in Australia. Both cover universities along their routes. Most of the universities and Perth Stadium are in relatively close proximity to the Perth CBD, the former the same distance as UNSW or less. Murdoch and Notre Dame universities are locationally equivalent to Macquarie University and, similarly to Macquarie (when the the metro opens through to the city), are located on rapid transit rail lines. Perth Stadium is on rail.

So, to come back to the point, there's something in common with SE Sydney in the potential to insert higher-capacity light rail (which would have extended from Curtin to UWA via the CBD), but, unlike SE Sydney, the physical constraints are very severe, a rail line along either corridor is not really viable and buses will have to continue doing the job. Sydney's issue, the subject of this thread, is that it's not sensible to have light rail and buses running alongside each other, nor was it originally intended, but if the tram is too slow, then there's a dilemma.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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With Region 7 getting a new network in late January, it shouldn't be far away for the new Anzac Parade/Randwick network.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by ar10 »

swtt wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:32 pm With Region 7 getting a new network in late January, it shouldn't be far away for the new Anzac Parade/Randwick network.
For public, I guess at least 2nd Quarter next year
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Possibly a "tidy up" prior to privatisation, although most of the overlaps have been sorted with the other Region changes.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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tonyp wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:39 pm The main issue I see in inserting trams in Perth is the extraordinarily narrow streets and roads. You think Sydney has narrow streets - go west. Trams can go along narrow streets for sure, but it throws up a number of issues if they have to share with traffic and both regularly block each other.
You think Perth has narrow streets for trams? Try this! :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIPfzzZTP0A&t=387s

(and I'm lead to believe that the safeworking is line-of-sight)
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by jpp42 »

I couldn't see the video, but it is captioned Amsterdam - is that showing the single line working they have in extremely narrow places? I was in Amsterdam exactly one year ago and rode one route a few times that was doing this, and was wondering how they governed who got to take the road - I guess whoever gets there first, and the other just waits? It was interesting how short the waiting times were - it didn't seem to impact things that much. I assume if this were done in NSW, they'd want to conform to a timetable, for which they can never meet, and trams would probably wait for 5-10 minutes each time...
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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jpp42 wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:20 pm I couldn't see the video, but it is captioned Amsterdam - is that showing the single line working they have in extremely narrow places?
Yes that's the one.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Qantas94Heavy »

UNSW express bus routes are finally going to be discontinued, according to social media: https://twitter.com/edengillespie/statu ... 7902817281
Routes 891/893/898 will no longer operate from Mon 21 Dec 2020.

EDIT: found an official link: https://student.unsw.edu.au/notices/202 ... bus-routes
Last edited by Qantas94Heavy on Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by boronia »

Not surprising, as they have hardly been used during terms, let alone over the summer holidays.
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