NSW High Speed Rail... On Again Off Again

[tonyp]

I'd be happy if the Southern Highlands line simply took the same amount of time as driving does!

I think that's the key to it - doing the trip in enough less time than driving in order to act as an incentive to change from driving to the train. Actually you already have the best chance on the main south out of all the lines, if you use the two through Southern Highlands trains. They do the trip between Bowral and Central in 1:50 min to 2:00 hrs, compared to about 1:30 min driving - which would spin out to well over 2 hrs in peak, plus the issue of finding parking.

I haven't ridden an ICE train (not sure that I'd want to after reading the details of the Eschede disaster and the lax culture at DB), but I've done the Nuremberg-Munich route a number of times by both train and car. For a lot of the time the two routes are right beside each other and you sit in the car doing about 130, being passed by BMWs/Mercs/Audis doing 200, that are paralleled by the stopping trains doing a little under 200 (double deck push-pull trains with an electric loco) and then the occasional ICE shoots past at 300. Quite honestly I was happy with the stopping trains that, by Australian standards, had astronomical speed and great acceleration on their own, plus the ability to get on an off at intermediate towns if you're weren't doing the full length. What Gladys mightn't have picked up about the ICE is that is an intercity train that bypasses a lot of places on the way - not what you want on a NSW interurban or regional train. That would be a high-performance (as opposed to high speed) train with good acceleration (stop-start ability) and a maximum speed of probably no more than 200.

[Swift]

Replacing the circuitous winding sections with a more direct straight route that both saves distance and allows uninterrupted top permitted speed would be a major advance.
Then maybe they will increase the permitted speed as well. The existing interurban stock in NSW could probably hit close to 200km/h safely on good tracks.

[verbatim9]

Sydney Morning Herald --> Faster journeys on Sydney-Canberra trains among 'priorities'

Slow trips for passengers travelling on the ageing rail line between Sydney and Canberra have been singled out by the country's top infrastructure adviser, which favours an upgrade to tracks and railway signalling to enable faster services.

Infrastructure Australia has put the rail corridor and several highway upgrades, including a 33-kilometre stretch of the Great Western Highway in the Blue Mountains, on its latest list of priority projects it wants state and federal governments to target.

It comes ahead of the expected release in the coming months of a report by British rail expert Andrew McNaughton on potential high-speed rail routes in NSW. The Sydney-Canberra route was one of four he canvassed for his report, which was completed at the end of last year.

Infrastructure Australia said the 320-kilometre line from Sydney to Canberra was "constrained by terrain, ageing infrastructure and track sharing with freight movements", leading to long journey times.

It takes about four hours to travel by train between Sydney and Canberra, compared with three hours by car. As a result, just 1 per cent of people travelling between the two cities use trains.

"Improving rail services in this corridor would provide more transport options for travellers, improve travel-time reliability for rail passengers and reduce pressure on the air corridor," Infrastructure Australia said.

It said potential upgrades could include track straightening and duplication, electrification of the line, signalling improvements and new trains.

The potential role of high speed rail should also be considered, it said.

ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr said both his government and its NSW counterpart believed improving the line was a priority, and he was encouraged that Infrastructure Australia had recognised the need for faster trains.

"This isn’t about ‘high speed’ or ‘very fast’ rail – it’s about improving the existing corridor, reducing travel times and making rail more competitive than driving or flying," he said.

NSW Regional Transport and Roads Minister Paul Toole said the government was "taking the time to get" right the vision for a fast rail network, and would update the public as "soon as we have more to say".

"This network has the potential to reduce travel times by 75 per cent," he said.

Infrastructure Australia also identified as "priority initiatives" an upgrade to the Great Western Highway between Katoomba and Lithgow, and improvements to the Princes Highway from Nowra on the South Coast to the Victorian border.

The Great Western Highway passes through towns such as Blackheath, which led to "congestion, safety risks from heavy vehicles ... and additional travel costs for freight".

Mr Toole said the government was investing $2.5 billion towards upgrading the Great Western Highway, and a similar amount for the Princes Highway.

^^This line will do well as a electrified commuter line. With speeds up to 250kph?

[neilrex]

Even if the train took 3 hours, people still would not use it.

You can drive to ANYWHERE in Canberra, starting from ANYWHERE in Sydney, in three hours.

If you went by train, you'd have to add an hour to get to Central, and another hour to get from Canberra station to your actual destination.

And if you drive there, you can leave and return exactly when you want, not when the train wants.

The only way I'd consider it, is if I could do actual work on the train that I was getting paid for.

[BroadGauge]

Even if the train took 3 hours, people still would not use it.

People use the coach services in decent numbers.

Heck, plenty of people still use the train from Newcastle to Sydney, which takes not that far off three hours for a trip that's half the distance of SYD - CBR as the crow flies.

You can drive to ANYWHERE in Canberra, starting from ANYWHERE in Sydney, in three hours.

I drove from Goulburn to Parramatta a few months ago, leaving at 7am, and thanks to the traffic that I struck, it took 2 hours and 40 minutes.

Not sure how I could have done that trip in just 20 minutes longer starting from Canberra

[moa999]

The bus at least goes to the centre of Canberra.

From Canberra station you've got to walk over 200m to the nearest city bound bus stop on the other side of Wentworth Ave.

[Newcastle Flyer]

Re quote in verbatim9's previous post

Let's see another part of the sports rort scandal, and this so called good news is released!

[neilrex]

there will always be some people who don't have cars.

and the majority of people on newcastle-sydney trains are going somewhere that the train actually goes, like cbd or north sydney/st leonards/chatswood. or the airport.

[boronia]

The bus at least goes to the centre of Canberra.

From Canberra station you've got to walk over 200m to the nearest city bound bus stop on the other side of Wentworth Ave.

How far is it from Jolimont to the bus terminal?

[Transtopic]

I've noted recent reports where the patronage on the Canberra Xplorer services have actually increased significantly, notwithstanding the slower journey time compared with cars and coaches. If they can cut an hour off the existing journey time with track and signalling upgrades, particularly with increased services, imagine how much more patronage would be increased. Car and coach times via road can't be improved beyond the current journey times.

[boxythingy]

It would be a no brainer to take an hour train from Campbelltown to Central, only to catch a coach from there to Canberra via Campbelltown (3 hours), considering it only takes 3 hours by train from Campbelltown.

[Linto63]

Confirmation that we are in an election year: Labor promises $500m for Sydney to Newcastle leg of future high-speed rail

[boronia]

$500M should get a couple of new feasibility studies, and a maybe couple of blocks of land.

Then what?

[Swift]

Or maybe get Chinese money for a Maglev since we're seeing them moving to the Central Coast lately.

High speed rail is so 1960s.

[ACM]

Confirmation that we are in an election year: Labor promises $500m for Sydney to Newcastle leg of future high-speed rail

Similarly to how others put it, that gets you 1.2km of low grade urban light rail. In terms of high speed rail, that's a feasibility study, no more.

Maglev's cost more for every reason you can think of and are "Gadgetbahn"s - they have no advantage other than pure speed, which is not important over this distance.

IMHO This high speed rail is not a bad idea, but to make the most out of it, we (the taxpayer) would would need:
-Good connections at the Sydney End
-Good connections at the Newcastle End, including new a suburban rail line as a feeder (light or heavy rail? - buses barely count)

Eventually it could be fleshed out as Brisbane-Melbourne? A high speed rail network would revolutionise the East Coast to the same degree motorways have.

[Swift]

Maglev has one major appeal. No friction, less noise and maintainance. Smoothest riding experience of any transport mode in existence as you're hovering on an even magnetic field. If your building from scratch, you may as well have the latest. No wheels to reinvent as there are non.

[ACM]

Maglev has one major appeal. No friction, less noise and maintainance. Smoothest riding experience of any transport mode in existence as you're hovering on an even magnetic field. If your building from scratch, you may as well have the latest. No wheels to reinvent as there are non.

Maglevs still suffer air friction, and motor inefficiencies. China & Japan have toyed with them but not implemented them mainstream for these reasons. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q22pcC98hY

A whole bunch of technologies have been heralded as revolutionary. CSELR. Monorails. Vacuum tube trains. Rubber tyre trains. Flying cars. Solar roadways. Electric cars. Carbon capture. To misquote Chris De Burgh - 'Don't pay the ferry builder till it takes you to the other side'.

[Swift]

If you want some real transport tech, visit the state of Navada.

[Transtopic]

What Albo is really saying is that they will build a faster rail link between Sydney and Newcastle to Medium Speed Rail standard (up to 200km/h) by upgrading the existing line with provision for upgrading sections of it further to High Speed Rail standard at some indeterminate time in the future - not that it's such a bad thing. However, the messaging is confusing, as most of the uninitiated wouldn't know the difference between Fast Rail, Faster Rail or High Speed Rail.

It appears to be loosely based on the NSW Government's Fast Rail proposal to upgrade the existing main lines to Port Macquarie, Orange, Canberra and Nowra which was announced in 2018. It commissioned Professor Andrew McNaughton from the UK to investigate the feasibility of the program and although his report was completed some time ago, it has never been publicly released. The NSW Government appears to have gone quiet on the matter. What does that tell you about its prospects?

[eddy]

Maglev has one major appeal. No friction, less noise and maintainance. Smoothest riding experience of any transport mode in existence as you're hovering on an even magnetic field. If your building from scratch, you may as well have the latest. No wheels to reinvent as there are non.

I love your positive attitude to 21 st century trains and may I add to reduce the tunnel resistance a single 14m dianeter $60b tunnel Sydney/Melbourne can allow the pressure build up out the launch shafts to keep a breathable 11 psi atmosphere allowing the train 700 km/h competing with planes with overnight container trains earning up to $20,000,000 per night.

[Swift]

I have an even better idea. Instead of going through the hassle of digging tunnels in land, have an under sea suspended tunnel tube with trains running through a vacuum which allows incredible speeds. I have seen a doco proposing such a system between countries.
Norway is already constructing suspended road tunnels under their very deep network of fjords.

[ACM]

What Albo is really saying is that they will build a faster rail link between Sydney and Newcastle to Medium Speed Rail standard (up to 200km/h) by upgrading the existing line with provision for upgrading sections of it further to High Speed Rail standard at some indeterminate time in the future - not that it's such a bad thing. However, the messaging is confusing, as most of the uninitiated wouldn't know the difference between Fast Rail, Faster Rail or High Speed Rail.

It appears to be loosely based on the NSW Government's Fast Rail proposal to upgrade the existing main lines to Port Macquarie, Orange, Canberra and Nowra which was announced in 2018. It commissioned Professor Andrew McNaughton from the UK to investigate the feasibility of the program and although his report was completed some time ago, it has never been publicly released. The NSW Government appears to have gone quiet on the matter. What does that tell you about its prospects?

Could've fooled me. In my eyes upgrading the EXISTING alignments is a waste of time and money IN THIS CASE as:
1) They are too twisty and entangled in suburban geography (e.g. on the Central Coast) to upgrade meaningfully
2) Upgrades would disturb existing services and not meaningfully increase capacity
It would make sense to do something similar to what they are doing in the UK, where they put high speed rail on a separate corridor, leaving other lines for freight and local passenger services.

A Cost-Benefit analysis was done on improving the Main South line and the economics were very good (I forget the exact figure) but the Main North is a different concern.

[ScaniaGrenda]

As I always say, I'm very skeptical because it always gets announced every time an election comes up and then party with said idea wins the election (not just based on that High Speed Rail idea alone) and after that nothing more, oh, not until the next election again where it pops up again as a "You elect us and we'll do High Speed rail".

I'm still Young(Ish) and they've been saying this for years, until I see shovels in the ground it ain't happening and is just white noise to me being made for the sake of trying to say anything. I really do wish people would be skeptical in this case and stop thinking any of this is going to happen any time soon.

[Swift]

It's so ridiculous and predictable that it well soon turn voters off to keep saying they'll look into high speed rail.
They must do it mid term.

[ScaniaGrenda]

That's the issue Eddy, they keep talking about it but never enact on it, I'm at the point where as much as it'll interest me because I'm into Transport, I just tune it out, it is a broken record at this point. Is the next election promise going to be "50% off Opal fares on Tuesdays?".

I want to say geography is maybe playing a big part in it (I Don't 100% know, just one of my guesses given the hilly terrain once you get past Woy Woy station on the way to Hornsby via the CCN train line) but another assumption of mine is this is something they want to use as a bargaining chip to ensure their put first on the ballot come election time. One has to remember a lot of these are also "election promises" and once the election is over, it is guaranteed you won't hear anymore of it until the next election as I said in my first post.

It really really needs to be something at this point that isn't part of an election promise.