Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Fleet Lists »

The date for the interim report seems to have slipped from November to December this year.
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Stu
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Stu »

Linto63 wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:Elizabeth Bay? Does it have a wharf?
Is acctually named Darling Point, my bad. :shock:
The bus route 327 that used to operate through Darling Point used to have ferry connections with the bus timetables, some of the J-poles still display 'Ferry Link'.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Let's see if Ipart try's to propose a gold opal daily cap rise again like they did in their last opal fare review
Jurassic_Joke
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Even if IPART does recommend another increase to the daily cap, it won’t be going through - somewhere on the election trail, the liberals promised the $2.50 cap would be frozen where it was in the entirety of the next term of government if they win.

I wish they could’ve also given a guarantee how long the marvellous gift of the $50 weekly cap will remain at its current level though
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

Draft released
https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/Home/Indus ... -July-2020

The report is the more interesting document - https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/shar ... r-2019.pdf

Determination seems to be ~5% increases to base single fares each year,

But then a whole suite of recommendations of suggested caps and passes, off-peak mode extension and fare integration, seemingly without any clear conclusion giving the government plenty of leeway.

Net result of all the changes is surprise surprise a 2.5% average increase

I suspect Cubic will be looking forward to the integration changes.

-

Interesting stats
4% of users hit the $50 cap but only 86% of them travel 5+ days - more beneficial to those regularly taking long train or any ferry journeys.
Whereas 28% get the 8+ discount, 93% travelling 5+ days

The description of the passes also seems to suggests they would only be available for the account based (contactless system) - which seems to be mistakenly referred to as Opal Connect (which is the new on demand credit trial https://transportnsw.info/opal-connect-help )

They again repeat the view that Sunday caps should be increased but apply to both Sat and Sun, albeit don't nominate a figure (though reference the $7.60 in prior report) - though also suggest a $20 unlimited weekend pass (with kids free) - seems a RPO nightmare situation given a contactless card can't be written too to determine if you've actually purchased a pass.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by rogf24 »

It's great that IPART is recommending more integrated fares but that it doesn't apply to single fares is not great and their proposal for Opal Connect passes is outright just confusing to many ordinary people, the type that wouldn't make submissions.

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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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A lot of it seems to be just bureaucratic woffle. I cant see the government accepting a lot of it. Overall I think a most disappointing document.
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stupid_girl
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by stupid_girl »

moa999 wrote:Draft released
https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/Home/Indus ... -July-2020

The report is the more interesting document - https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/shar ... r-2019.pdf

Determination seems to be ~5% increases to base single fares each year,

But then a whole suite of recommendations of suggested caps and passes, off-peak mode extension and fare integration, seemingly without any clear conclusion giving the government plenty of leeway.

Net result of all the changes is surprise surprise a 2.5% average increase

I suspect Cubic will be looking forward to the integration changes.

-

Interesting stats
4% of users hit the $50 cap but only 86% of them travel 5+ days - more beneficial to those regularly taking long train or any ferry journeys.
Whereas 28% get the 8+ discount, 93% travelling 5+ days

The description of the passes also seems to suggests they would only be available for the account based (contactless system) - which seems to be mistakenly referred to as Opal Connect (which is the new on demand credit trial https://transportnsw.info/opal-connect-help )

They again repeat the view that Sunday caps should be increased but apply to both Sat and Sun, albeit don't nominate a figure (though reference the $7.60 in prior report) - though also suggest a $20 unlimited weekend pass (with kids free) - seems a RPO nightmare situation given a contactless card can't be written too to determine if you've actually purchased a pass.
This is not mistakenly referred to as Opal Connect.

https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/shar ... r-2019.pdf

Below is quoted from page 4.
we consider that transfer credits should be allowed for multi-modal journeys made in conjunction with on-demand services through the OpalConnect account-based system. This is consistent with our draft recommendation for fixed-route fares, and the Government’s current policy of providing transfer credits through OpalConnect, where it is enabled for use on on- demand services. OpalConnect allows for accurate point-to-point journey pricing to be calculated and applied after completion of the whole journey. Where a passenger makes a multi-modal journey, a credit is applied to the account on reconciliation to be used towards future trips. Passengers would not be penalised for their mode choice, while contributing a fair and reasonable amount to the cost of the service.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

And yet in the report Opal Connect is referred to in the context of a $20 pass that is providing a discount to train/metro journeys, nothing to do with on-demand at all.

Image

May not be in error - but they are substantially expanding the scope of Opal Connect.

I personally hate any form of passes/prepaid fares/bulk purchases that a customer needs to choose.

The benefit of the current Opal system is its relative simplicity, it automatically apply the most appropriate discounts.
Last edited by moa999 on Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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moa999 wrote:
I personally hate any form of passes/prepaid fares/bulk purchases that a customer needs to choose.

The benefit of the current Opal system is its relative simplicity, it automatically apply the most appropriate discounts.
Here, here - I fully agree that we should not complicate what is now quite a simple system.
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stupid_girl
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by stupid_girl »

moa999 wrote:And yet in the report Opal Connect is referred to in the context of a $20 pass that is providing a discount to train/metro journeys, nothing to do with on-demand at all.

Image

May not be in error - but they are substantially expanding the scope of Opal Connect.

I personally hate any form of passes/prepaid fares/bulk purchases that a customer needs to choose.

The benefit of the current Opal system is its relative simplicity, it automatically apply the most appropriate discounts.
Yes, they are expanding the scope.

https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/shar ... r-2019.pdf
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Linto63 »

Predictable bureaucratic rubbish formed by those living in a bubble. Do they really think that demand can be managed by off-peak fares? Those in the public service can play the flexi-time game (or at least used to be able to), but for the rest of us there is a need to be at work, uni, school etc during normal hours. Rolling in at 10:30 isn't an option. Just like the last one of these, most of the ideas will probably end up in the bin.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by grog »

Expanding off peak fares is a good idea, you only need a couple of percent of people to be able to change their timing to make a difference to crowding. There are actually a surprising high number of non-work related trips during peak travel times.

The only difference between Opal and Opal Connect is that the fare rules don’t need to be built into the card/real time processing, which is complicated. It allows the discount to be calculated at the back end at the end of the day and then credited back to the balance. Clearly this is learning the lesson of last time when IPART suggested changes that weren’t technically possible with Opal at the time.

Also positive is moving to common fares for Bus, Light Rail and Trains. The fare bands still don’t line up exactly which leaves the fares appearing different at the low end, but it’s a positive step. Ideally they would address that by introducing a 0-3km train fare, a 3-10km train and bus fare, and just use the train scales above that.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

stupid_girl wrote: Yes, they are expanding the scope.

https://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/shar ... r-2019.pdf
The fact that that paper is on IPART letterhead seriously concerns me about the independence of IPART.

Looks like it was cobbled together from a TfNSW's consultant's report - one who has seemingly has no clue that the Opal system covers an area about the size of the Netherlands, rather than an individual city.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

grog wrote:Expanding off peak fares is a good idea, you only need a couple of percent of people to be able to change their timing to make a difference to crowding. There are actually a surprising high number of non-work related trips during peak travel times.

The only difference between Opal and Opal Connect is that the fare rules don’t need to be built into the card/real time processing, which is complicated. It allows the discount to be calculated at the back end at the end of the day and then credited back to the balance. Clearly this is learning the lesson of last time when IPART suggested changes that weren’t technically possible with Opal at the time.

Also positive is moving to common fares for Bus, Light Rail and Trains. The fare bands still don’t line up exactly which leaves the fares appearing different at the low end, but it’s a positive step. Ideally they would address that by introducing a 0-3km train fare, a 3-10km train and bus fare, and just use the train scales above that.
How about having a fare structure where passengers can have a $0 multiple mode transfer inside 2 hours where someone can go from a 6km bus trip to a 42km train trip under the multi mode transfer the train trip and all other inter or multi mode transfers made within that 2 hour period since last tap off will be the the price of that 6km bus trip made to the closest train station that falls within the 3-8km bus fare band witch means gold opal users would have fares capped at $1•25 unlimited for travel within 4 hours
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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That does not make sense - some further explanation required. How do you justify Gold Card cap of $1.25 within 4 hours?

I think we should discuss what is being proposed here and not come up with some hairy fairy alternate schemes.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

They simply need to convert train/metro to actual rather than track distance.
Then you just have a surcharge for ferry and/or peak.

The current mode transfer introduces inconsistencies.
Eg. Once the Kingsford LR branch opens.
Maroubra - Mid City.
$4.80 on the express bus (over 8km)
$3.97 on bus to light rail (0-3 + 3-8)
$2.96 if you flip between light rail and bus before every 3km
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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Fleet Lists wrote: Here, here - I fully agree that we should not complicate what is now quite a simple system.
Maybe I sound like a typical outsider, but the way Opal Fares are discussed around these parts seems anything but simple! Caps, transfer costs, different prices for different modes - aaaargh!

I'll go and crawl back under my rock now :lol:
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

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There are a lot of improvements which can be made, some of which such transfer discounts - different modes which are listed in the report for improvement or abolition. But on the other hand such suggestions as going back to MyMulty style fares as an alternative are complications which will make it a lot worse and which should not be implemented.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I think this report is really good - they really surprised me, compared to how anti-frequent-discount (and anti-consumer) the previous report was from a handful of years ago.

They’ve gone and recommended bring back periodical passes, and better yet, in different shapes and forms - big yes yes. I will write a submission commending this if it’s still open.

They’ve even backflipped on off peak discounts for buses and trams. Remember how in the last report, they were like, “oh no, no off peak discounts for buses and trams, this is too anti-cost reflective”, and now they’ve gone and recommended it.

Better integration for fares between modes - big yes as well.

The current Opal fare system indeed is “simplistic” - but I think it’s also outdated and is long overdue for an overhaul. Unless I missed it, did they recommend any changes to daily weekly and Sunday caps, or would these be superseded by passes

Unfortunately, making a prediction based off the previous report, I think only a couple of these recommendations, if any at all will be taken up.

Worst comes to worst - they just leave the $50 cap alone or only increase it with 2% inflation. Can’t believe I’m part of the 4% (!!!!) of people that reach this cap and travel 7 days too to boot - I’m getting a pretty generous discount as is and have been more than satisfied since the changes in June.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

And it should be noted that whilst not a regulated fare, given IPART commented on plenty of other topics, they didn't mention the one fare that hasn't changed since 2005.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Fleet Lists wrote:That does not make sense - some further explanation required. How do you justify Gold Card cap of $1.25 within 4 hours?

I think we should discuss what is being proposed here and not come up with some hairy fairy alternate schemes.
Maybe the gold opal 4 hour $1•25 cap doesn't sound as good as what it sounded in thought but the 2 hour multi mode transfer for adult card users that saves the passenger something like $6•89 of a non discounted $11•69 peak bus/train trip between Camden and the city via Campbelltown witch currently includes a $4•80 bus trip between John street Camden and Campbelltown station and a 6•89 train trip between Campbelltown and the city with the $2 discount that over all fare cuts off at $9•69 with this multi mode transfer idea the discounted $4•89 train trip from Campbelltown counts as a $0 trip as the passenger has transferred between modes within that 2 hour period witch would make that whole trip only cost him or her $4•80 witch isn't existent on the trip home as the bus trip to Camden becomes the $0 trip as the $6•89 train fare becomes the default fare
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by neilrex »

this looks a bit like another English idea. complicated and tricky, just because they do it in England doesn't mean it would be useful here.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by gld59 »

Merc1107 wrote:Maybe I sound like a typical outsider, but the way Opal Fares are discussed around these parts seems anything but simple! Caps, transfer costs, different prices for different modes - aaaargh!
Fares are complicated, but tickets are simple. One bucket of money, with no need to work out the week's travel patterns beforehand in order to buy the right ticket. Any move towards passes is a backward step if it becomes necessary to get the best price, and a pointless complication otherwise.
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Re: Ipart Opal Fare review 2020 to 2024

Post by moa999 »

For a big system (where you need to charge by distance, unlike say NY), it's not that bad
4 modes, 3-5 distance bands per mode. Off-peak on rail and transfer benefit.

It's imho a great deal simpler than zonal systems where you need to consult a map or our old section system. Albeit personally I prefer Singapore's more granular fare system rather than fare bands.
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