[SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner west

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
User avatar
swtt
Posts: 5415
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm

[SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner west

Post by swtt »

When Route 461 only runs half hourly off peak and 10 min peak, that is not even Rapid route specifications.

Build up route 461 patronage so much that it warrants a light rail line first!

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/parramatta-ro ... xfb1p.html
Parramatta Road tram plans developed - then scrapped
JULY 21 2017 - 12:15AM
Jacob Saulwick

Detailed plans for a light rail line along Parramatta Road linking Sydney's central business district to Burwood were developed by the state's transport agency, but were abandoned several months ago.

Fairfax Media has obtained extensive planning documents for a Parramatta Road light rail line, developed last year and early this year for Transport for NSW.

The project, estimated to cost up to $2.7 billion, would aim to take advantage of the WestConnex motorway to be completed in 2023.

The light rail line would include about 15 stops on Parramatta Road, and the route would run between Burwood Station and a terminus near Museum Station.

The line would provide a more reliable and efficient service than the bus network, which on Transport for NSW's own analysis suffers from a lack of capacity and poor customer satisfaction.

Despite the extensive plans, it is understood Transport for NSW scrapped work on the scheme in the first three months of this year.

Image

The department also said the plans obtained by Fairfax Media, which included hundreds of pages of costings, assumptions and block-by-block designs as well as multiple documents marked "cabinet in confidence", were "never considered by government."

According to a "cabinet in confidence" document dated November 2016, the light rail line would have delivered multiple benefits for Sydney's inner west.

The tram trip from Burwood to the city was estimated to take about 22 minutes, compared with a 39-minute bus journey along the same route.

Early planning for the project assumed a tram running every four minutes in peak periods. There would be an overall improvement in traffic conditions as more commuters shifted to the light rail line. Traffic at some intersections, however, would worsen, particularly around City Road and Broadway.

With an extra 220,000 people expected to live along the Parramatta Road corridor in the next 15 years, the Transport for NSW studies depicted the light rail project as helping to take pressure off the over-loaded transport network.

The inner west heavy rail line, the bus network, plus the existing inner west light rail line, are "unable to accommodate already projected growth", a document prepared for a "risk workshop" says.

This document notes that bus satisfaction levels in the inner west are the lowest in Sydney, and bus speeds significantly below best practice in the city. The Transport Minister Andrew Constance this year used these facts as a reason to privatise the operation of bus services in the area.

The documents obtained by Fairfax Media also depict the light rail project as crucial for taking advantage of the WestConnex motorway, which will open in stages leading up to 2023.

Image

WestConnex will provide an opportunity to improve the "urban form" of Parramatta Road, "subject to other initiatives taking timely advantage of this opportunity".

When the M4 East section of WestConnex was approved last year, then planning minister Rob Stokes imposed a condition that two lanes of Parramatta Road be reserved for public transport, unless a better public transport initiative was supplied.

The light rail line would satisfy those conditions. It is unclear how the government plans to satisfy those conditions if it does not build the tram line. It had said it would build a metro rail line between Parramatta and the city, but has committed only to intermediate stops at the Bays Precinct at Rozelle and at Sydney Olympic Park.

Mr Constance is on leave. A spokesman for Transport for NSW said the department regularly looked at transport options to consider their potential.

"Only very early assessments of this potential approach were carried out and it has never been considered by government," the spokesman said.

"Transport for NSW is still investigating public transport options to be implemented following the opening of WestConnex to support urban renewal and revitalisation of Parramatta Road.

"Such plans will also complement initiatives to improve customer services, including Sydney Metro West, which is currently in a consultation phase."

The spokesman said the decision to franchise inner west bus services was not linked to the future planning of Parramatta Road transport.

It is understood the project director of the Parramatta Road light rail scheme quit Transport for NSW after work was scrapped this year.

Construction of the project was timed to work around WestConnex. Construction work off Parramatta Road, for instance on a stabling yard, and in Burwood, would have happened before the completion of the motorway in 2023. Once the motorway was finished, the Parramatta Road work would start, allowing the tram line to open in 2025.

A separate light rail project from George Street to the eastern suburbs should open in 2019. Construction of a tram line from Westmead through Parramatta to Carlingford should start next year.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9628
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by tonyp »

It's easy enough to meet the condition of having two lanes of PT along Parramatta Rd by having two bus lanes.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
swtt
Posts: 5415
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner

Post by swtt »

Light rail needs to be justifyable. The current L1 route is, because it used an old goods line.

I'm just not sure how dense Parramatta Road will become.

Sent from my Huawei Mate 9 using Tapatalk
User avatar
Daniel
Administrator
Posts: 7059
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:03 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Mercedes-Benz O405 / CC '510'
Location: Sutherland Shire

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner

Post by Daniel »

swtt wrote:Light rail needs to be justifyable. The current L1 route is, because it used an old goods line.

I'm just not sure how dense Parramatta Road will become.

Sent from my Huawei Mate 9 using Tapatalk
For context check out the Parramatta Road corridor documents below, including the planning and design guidelines plus implementation strategy.
http://www.urbangrowth.nsw.gov.au/proje ... /#topic-20
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9628
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by tonyp »

That very density is the thing that kills off reinserting a modern tramway because you can't widen the roads by demolishing development in order to insert platforms - as they would have discovered. It could be done in Parramatta Rd (presently 6 lanes) but there would be a choke-point down to one lane each way at every tram stop. With Burwood Rd (4 lanes) you'd have to either close the road off or just leave one lane one way in order to insert a stop, since they've ruled out drive-over ("Vienna") platforms.

Kerbside tram tracks wouldn't work because the road camber would raise the risk of fouling awnings, stanchions etc. However you can do kerbside lanes for buses (as long as they're not double deckers!) and I think that's the way they'll have to go. Using artics at close headways will take them some way along the path to matching tram capacity. That may be all it needs. Sydney has problems inserting modern, accessible tramways in anything other than wide boulevards, streets that can be closed-off and specially engineered ROWs. Modern design and usability standards have killed off the old ability of a tramway to wind its way through tight urban spaces.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by rogf24 »

Getting to Burwood might be a bit of a challenge ending the tram at Ashfield Station might work. I'll turn off at Liverpool Rd and finish at Hercules St. I don't think the challenge for Ashfield is as great as Burwood. The Burwood/Concord and Kings Bay/Five Dock redevelopment areas can be served by Sydney Metro instead leaving the Ashfield tram to serve Taverners Hill, Leichhardt and Annandale. 24 hour bus lanes are probably better for this corridor though.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9628
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote:Getting to Burwood might be a bit of a challenge ending the tram at Ashfield Station might work. I'll turn off at Liverpool Rd and finish at Hercules St. I don't think the challenge for Ashfield is as great as Burwood. The Burwood/Concord and Kings Bay/Five Dock redevelopment areas can be served by Sydney Metro instead leaving the Ashfield tram to serve Taverners Hill, Leichhardt and Annandale. 24 hour bus lanes are probably better for this corridor though.
Liverpool Rd is 4 lanes - that's stuffs it at stops. In any case I think they've picked Burwood because it's the major urban centre in the region. Yes 24 hour bus lanes, but they must have artics to use on them.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by rogf24 »

What about using Shaftesbury Rd to get to Burwood and then terminate the tram at George St at Burwood? There's a Shaftsbury Rd pedestrian entrance for Westfield Burwood so that's quite helpful if they stop there. That said, Shaftesbury Rd is a busy road for cars because it's used as an alternative to Burwood Rd due to the eastbound no right turn from Parramatta Rd onto Burwood Rd although I don't think it'll be a big problem.
burrumbus
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by burrumbus »

461 doesn't have the patronage to warrant a tram line.The alignment to follow would be the 438 to Five Dock at least.It's a busy route and goes through the busiest part,in terms of pax of Parra Road to Leichhardt.As tony says putting a tram line down Parra Road would be the issue.I agree convert the 438 to artics.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9628
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by tonyp »

I always felt that a line to Five Dock/Abbotsford was a goer (its actually an old tram route), whether coming off Parramatta Rd or a branch off IWLR. Furthermore, consideration could be given to extending it across the Parramatta River (tram bridge) to Bedlam Point then Victoria Rd to Ryde. That's a corridor that needs something more than buses but not quite metro.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
Stu
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Stu »

When I read the title and saw the cost of $2.7B, I thought that this light rail proposal was only going to operate between Railway Square and Annandale. Stage 1 - single line and passing loops until more money can be allocated to build double track on the entire length. :evil:
Even if construction work commenced tomorrow, the cost would blow out to $4 Billion. :roll:
User avatar
Bedford-29
Posts: 4942
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:31 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Bedford-29 »

If Burwood Rd is still like is when the trams were running to Mortlake and Cabarita and to Enfield and Ashfield there be no problems they ran trams down Burwood Rd once they could do it again.Picture from pinterest
Attachments
O CLASS BURWOOD RD BURWOOD 1938
O CLASS BURWOOD RD BURWOOD 1938
Previoulsy known as United Diesel 15
burrumbus
Posts: 2050
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by burrumbus »

Maybe running a tram line down Parramatta Road would be a good thing.It would constrict traffic flow and force car drivers to either use Public Transport or go alternative routes.A bit like Sydney Road in Melbourne from the City to Coburg which is a very busy corridor.
But would that be politically palatable for either side of politics.To do that would require much greater capacity in the peak at least.
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1120
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by rogf24 »

burrumbus wrote:Maybe running a tram line down Parramatta Road would be a good thing.It would constrict traffic flow and force car drivers to either use Public Transport or go alternative routes.A bit like Sydney Road in Melbourne from the City to Coburg which is a very busy corridor.
But would that be politically palatable for either side of politics.To do that would require much greater capacity in the peak at least.
Have you been living under a rock and never heard of WestConnex?
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9628
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by tonyp »

Bedford-29 wrote:If Burwood Rd is still like is when the trams were running to Mortlake and Cabarita and to Enfield and Ashfield there be no problems they ran trams down Burwood Rd once they could do it again.
Your photo answers your question. Insert platforms at tram stops and what do you get? Either blocked traffic or traffic on tram lines which would torpedo reliability. In six-lane Parramatta Rd it's not such an issue. There you would get the two lanes of traffic each way narrowing to a one-lane pinch point at each stop (which the RTA would have kittens about) but at least you can have both tram and traffic.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
Bedford-29
Posts: 4942
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:31 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Bedford-29 »

With tramways I have seen trams operate in narrower streets then Burwood Rd and worst traffic congestion on you tube at least the French had the balls to build new tram lines and tramways
Previoulsy known as United Diesel 15
Tonymercury
Posts: 2590
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Botany NSW

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Tonymercury »

tonyp wrote: Your photo answers your question. Insert platforms at tram stops and what do you get? Either blocked traffic or traffic on tram lines which would torpedo reliability. In six-lane Parramatta Rd it's not such an issue. There you would get the two lanes of traffic each way narrowing to a one-lane pinch point at each stop (which the RTA would have kittens about) but at least you can have both tram and traffic.
Ah yes, but our congestion busting toll roads are going to convert Parramatta Rd into a pedestrian friendly auto free boulevard aren't they? Don't say that the Government is telling porkies again!
simonl
Posts: 7986
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by simonl »

burrumbus wrote:461 doesn't have the patronage to warrant a tram line.The alignment to follow would be the 438 to Five Dock at least.It's a busy route and goes through the busiest part,in terms of pax of Parra Road to Leichhardt.As tony says putting a tram line down Parra Road would be the issue.I agree convert the 438 to artics.
However, both could easily justify going to limited stops in the common section along Parramatta Rd. One of which (461) was promised in Sydney's bus future but we're still waiting for almost every upgrade to an existing route in that document in spite of the expiry of the 3 year "short term" horizon.
Liamena
Posts: 364
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:12 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Liamena »

More use should be made, of better roads, where they are available.

For example, buses from north burwood/north croydon/five dock to the cbd via the city west link road, would be faster.

There should also be more opportunities to change buses, even on express roads.

Example 1. There is, or was, a large unused bus stop on the Warringah freeway where it goes under Falcon Street. If I was travelling from Castle Hill and wanted to go to Mosman or Manly, I'd like to get off there and change, even if I had to walk up a big flight of stairs to do it.

Example 2. If buses were put onto the city west link road, there should be a stop near the north end of norton street, and the east end of lilyfield road, to enable passengers to change to other services. These should be jackhammered out of the side of the road so buses can pull out of the traffic lane.

These are the sort of changes that would make buses usable for the 80% of trips that are not headed to the cbd.
User avatar
Richard290
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:39 am
Favourite Vehicle: Volvo B8RLE Volgren Optimus
Location: Carlingford, NSW
Contact:

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Richard290 »

Liamena wrote: Example 1. There is, or was, a large unused bus stop on the Warringah freeway where it goes under Falcon Street. If I was travelling from Castle Hill and wanted to go to Mosman or Manly, I'd like to get off there and change, even if I had to walk up a big flight of stairs to do it.
I'm pretty sure those bays on the Warringah Freeway are layover points for buses being relieved before they arrive into the city.
Living at the north end of the 513 & 535. and the confluence of 513, 535, 546, 549, 550, 553, 625 & 630.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19583
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by boronia »

If the streets around Burwood are narrow, perhaps there is a case for building a single line loop off Parramatta Rd.

I think tonyp would go for something like this.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
Frosty
Posts: 1828
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:16 pm

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by Frosty »

I don't see the problem with having drive over platforms on Burwood Rd its nothing foreign to Australia. Melbourne keeps installing them in locations where platform stops are not feasible.

I see a major issue with LR in the City where would exactly terminate Hyde Park would that be politically acceptable. The Randwick Light Rail terminus at High Cross Park got changed to High St. I could see maybe like a two stage Light Rail a line from Parramatta Rd via the City down to Oxford St to Bondi Jn. Pretty sure the 438/L38 has a few bendy bus trips. But once the m50/m10 is canned with the completion of SELR it will free up some L depot bendy buses for use on the 438 & 461.
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19583
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by boronia »

They will be foreign to NSW, and beyond the thinking of the road/transport czars here.

They probably work OK in Melbourne because of the long established "stop for trams" culture. Expecting Sydney motorists to learn such rules for just 3 or 4 tram stops is just too hard to believe.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
simonl
Posts: 7986
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by simonl »

Liamena wrote:There should also be more opportunities to change buses, even on express roads.
This was a significant part of the success of the M2 services, IMO.
simonl
Posts: 7986
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [SMH] Plan for $2.7b light rail line in Sydney's inner w

Post by simonl »

boronia wrote:They probably work OK in Melbourne because of the long established "stop for trams" culture. Expecting Sydney motorists to learn such rules for just 3 or 4 tram stops is just too hard to believe.
Given that a substantial portion, probably the majority don't understand major rules like giving way to pedestrians when turning and less major rules like bus only lanes, I think you're correct here.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”