2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

[Bjwh86]

It is a worrying thought that changing trains at Strathfield might be "challenging" for students.

I have noted in the TfNSW "standard responses" templates, that not stopping at Redfern speeds up BMT services, but for some CCN services, an extra stop added "does not cause any significant delay".

I actually see nothing wrong with the new timetable. So what if you can’t get 1 train only to your final destination, it’s not really that hard to stand up, walk for a few steps and change to another train.

You can now get 1 train from Parramatta to any inner west station, which wasn’t possible before, but don’t hear about that in the MSM.

No system is perfect, ok maybe Tokyo, but Sydney Trains is no Philippine National Railways!


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[Glen]

It is a worrying thought that changing trains at Strathfield might be "challenging" for students.

Encouraging changing at Strathfield actually adds to the suburban load over the busiest section of the line, may not be such a good suggestion.

[grog]

From the patronage forecast documents that were published by SMH a few years back Western Line services actually have more people alight than join the service at Parramatta and Strathfield, so there is actually more capacity unused on that section than west of Parramatta which is the bottleneck.

[tonyp]

If it's a major destination with large numbers using the station, trains should stop there. An analogy would be if North Wollongong was dropped as a stop on express services and its huge number of users had to change at Wollongong or Thirroul and backtrack. If it's a system that delivers fast express journeys you could argue for it, but this is a system that is as slow as a slug and you'd be adding further delay to already excessively long journey-times.

All that sort of thing will do is drive users to take their car instead. Sydney public transport is still way too slow, infrequent and with poor connections to start talking up the interchange method in a big way. They need to start with the service foundations first and build from there. Track, signalling, train performance, bus performance etc etc. Instead - yet again - they're short cutting to a jump well ahead and, like every such effort before it, it will all fall apart because the groundwork hasn't been done.

The alternative is to start whipping up some new latest-tech metros in amongst it to progressively take over the mass transit task. No problem interchanging between those metro lines and they can also do it faster all stops than the older system takes even with the assistance of expressing.

[mandonov]

The network is in a state of transition now that will be difficult over the next 6 years. The system is reaching or has reached physical limits in some parts, with extra capacity not due until 2024. There will always be some losers.

[andy_centralcoast]

I have noted in the TfNSW "standard responses" templates, that not stopping at Redfern speeds up BMT services, but for some CCN services, an extra stop added "does not cause any significant delay".

Their standard response for removing Eastwood from CCN speeds also says it's to provide faster services for intercity customers. However this is simply not true - the new weekend timetable actually takes 2 minutes longer between Central and Hornsby despite no longer stopping at Eastwood.

[Newcastle Flyer]

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-uni-la ... zvpoq.html

Sydney Uni lashes out at government over 'serious impact' of train timetable changes

Sydney University has warned of the "serious impact" on thousands of students, staff and other commuters of a decision for trains on the Blue Mountain Line to no longer stop at Redfern station, making their trips "lengthier and more challenging".

Blah, blah, blah

No interurban trains should stop at Redfern, Eastwood & Tuggerah (Tuggerah is served by to/from Wyong trains - unless their are no scheduled suburban services such as at night when only NightRide buses are available. It's good that some weekday trains don't stop at Eastwood. Most expresses now don't stop at Wyee.

[swtt]

It is a worrying thought that changing trains at Strathfield might be "challenging" for students.

I have noted in the TfNSW "standard responses" templates, that not stopping at Redfern speeds up BMT services, but for some CCN services, an extra stop added "does not cause any significant delay".

Correct -- not stopping at Redfern would in fact cause most intercities to be sped up, as the stop there often takes much longer than 60 seconds due to the smaller, manually opened doors.

Not such an issue at Burwood if the volume of passengers alighting is far smaller, and the Oscars with their fully automatic doors do the trick.

[boronia]

But dwell time at Redfern for i/c trains is not critical because they terminate at the next stop and usually have extended layovers before the next trip.

[tonyp]

But dwell time at Redfern for i/c trains is not critical because they terminate at the next stop and usually have extended layovers before the next trip.

Exactly. Nobody is getting the point that Sydney University is a HUGE public transport patronage generator. Any large university is the equivalent of a mini CBD. You can't put Redfern in the same category as Eastwood, Tuggerah etc. Redfern is the university stop. All trains MUST stop there as much as they need to stop at e.g. Liverpool, Parramatta etc. You don't see anybody arguing for trains to breeze through those.

My experience over the years with trains going into Central is that they spend a lot of time stationary between Redfern and Central anyway so what difference does it make stopping at Redfern?

[swtt]

But dwell time at Redfern for i/c trains is not critical because they terminate at the next stop and usually have extended layovers before the next trip.

It is quite critical as trains exiting from Sydney Terminal often are delayed due to late running entries into ST.

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[boronia]

My experience/observation has been that arrivals at ST are usually held back to ensure on time departures, regardless of how late the arrival is.

[swtt]

My experience/observation has been that arrivals at ST are usually held back to ensure on time departures, regardless of how late the arrival is.

Which then delays the trains behind, which will be even more problematic when the ECRL shuts down and presumably more entries and exits into ST due to lack of train paths into Town Hall and Shore lines.

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[swtt]

Don't forget OTR is measured on the arriving train. The outbound train from ST often has recovery time elsewhere. There is no recovery time from Redfern into ST.


I'm not saying I necessarily agree with removing Redfern stops, but I think it's understanding what the constraints are. You were quite right in saying there is an issue when university students find it difficult to interchange at Strathfield. But without some expensive upgrades at Redfern and into ST, people will just have to suck it up and stop thinking the train is run for them and the people in their carriage

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[Transtopic]

I have noted in the TfNSW "standard responses" templates, that not stopping at Redfern speeds up BMT services, but for some CCN services, an extra stop added "does not cause any significant delay".

Their standard response for removing Eastwood from CCN speeds also says it's to provide faster services for intercity customers. However this is simply not true - the new weekend timetable actually takes 2 minutes longer between Central and Hornsby despite no longer stopping at Eastwood.

Didn't you know? No one cares about Eastwood. It's an insignificant backwater. When the Northern Line services from Hornsby are diverted via Strathfield next year with the closing of the ECRL for conversion to metro, I expect that Eastwood will also lose its weekday CCN services and be downgraded to an all stations service from Epping to the CBD. Upper Northern Line services in the peak will most likely run all stops from Hornsby to Epping, then express to Strathfield. Off peak with most likely revert to all stops from Hornsby to Strathfield @ 4tph.

[Roderick Smith]

People are obsessed with having express running. No real metro ever has expresses. Changing does work with cross-platform interchange, and frequent services. However, Australian systems don't have that.
In Victoria, expresses stop at Glenferrie (for Swinburne), which leaves so little real express running that there may as well not be expresses.

Roderick

December 1 2017 Sydney Uni lashes out at government over 'serious impact' of train timetable changes .
Sydney University has warned of the "serious impact" on thousands of students, staff and other commuters of a decision for trains on the Blue Mountain Line to no longer stop at Redfern station, making their trips "lengthier and more challenging".
In a swipe at the state's transport agency, vice-chancellor Michael Spence said the decision for trains on the line to bypass Redfern in favour of Central Station had "added greatly to the university's already significant public transport pressures".
More videos Parramatta Road light rail cancelled before departure The NSW Government have drawn up extensive plans for a Burwood to CBD light rail line, but have shown no sign of going forward with it in the near future.
"We are disturbed that we were not consulted about such a significant change," he said in a letter to the state opposition.
Dr Spence said Transport Minister Andrew Constance had identified demand for trains "going through the roof", and "yet he had allowed a timetabling change which makes train travel for thousands of our students and staff lengthier and more challenging".
Related Articles
Parramatta Road tram plans developed - then scrapped The Sydney commuters facing longer train trips As a result of the changes, commuters travelling from the west on the Blue Mountains Line now have to switch services at Strathfield, or travel to Central and then catch another train back to Redfern.
Redfern station is the major access point from trains to the university's campus at Camperdown in Sydney's inner west. About 10,000 students and staff travel on trains on weekdays from western Sydney to Redfern where they walk to the university.
In a sign it has lost patience with the government's plans to improve transport links, Dr Spence has told the state opposition that "you have the University of Sydney's support in your ongoing advocacy on this vital transport issue".
"I know you will be advocating on behalf of those who will be suffering the ill-effects of this change," he wrote in the letter to Labor's transport spokeswoman, Jodi McKay.
Trains on the Blue Mountains Line no longer stop at Redfern. Photo: Ben Rushton In response to questions from the Herald, Dr Spence said the detriment of the timetable changes was "especially staggering" given that commuters who travelled past Redfern to Central would save only three minutes at most on their journey.
"We will continue to ask the NSW government to take public transport access to our campuses seriously," he said.
An artist's impression of the planned metro train station at Waterloo. Photo: Supplied But Sydney Trains chief executive Howard Collins said the number of trains stopping at Redfern had actually risen by 11 per cent, which was in addition to frequent bus services between the station and Central.
"We've delivered the largest increase in capacity ever introduced on the train network. This means customers will have more options to travel to key education hubs, not fewer," he said.
Sydney University vice-chancellor Michael Spence was "disturbed that we were not consulted about such a significant change" to train timetabling. Photo: Louise Kennerley Mr Collins said an evidence-based approach had been taken to developing the new timetable, which showed where and when commuters travelled.
"In the weekday morning peak, five times as many customers from Blue Mountains stations are travelling to Central rather than Redfern," he said.
Labor has vowed to review the new timetables and "correct the bias against western Sydney" if it is elected to government at the state election in 2019.
Ms McKay said Mr Constance had made life difficult for up to 10,000 students and thousands more who worked at the Australian Technology Park "and he didn't think to tell anyone about it".
"It's disturbing, but not particularly surprising, that he overlooked the needs of thousands of students and workers and didn't bother consulting them," she said.
A spokeswoman for Mr Constance said the minister had received a letter from Dr Spence and a response was due within the next week.
Hopes dashed
Sydney University has been repeatedly knocked back in the past two years in its attempts to improve public transport links to its Camperdown campus.
In late 2015, the government chose Waterloo as the site of a station on a new metro line from Chatswood in the north to Sydenham in the south, instead of the university.
And it is unlikely it will gain a station as part of the second metro project from the CBD to Parramatta due to the government committing to a stop at the Bays Precinct at Rozelle.
Its hopes of a light rail line along Parramatta Road have also been dashed.
The sandstone university has forecast its student population will grow by 26,000 to 76,000 over the next two decades.
But it has conceded that its ability to achieve that growth will be constrained by public transport because potential students consider ease of travel when picking universities.
Macquarie University is next to a station on the Northern Line and the University of Technology is close to Central Station, while the University of NSW will be linked to Sydney's eastern suburbs light rail line by 2019.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-uni-la ... zvpoq.html

[boronia]

Don't forget OTR is measured on the arriving train. The outbound train from ST often has recovery time elsewhere. There is no recovery time from Redfern into ST.

Huh? Outbound trains have to blend in with other services in the metro area. A delay here can affect other services.

Trains arriving at ST usually stay there for at least 15 minutes, often longer, before turning around for the next departure. This isn't recovery time?

[aman]

But dwell time at Redfern for i/c trains is not critical because they terminate at the next stop and usually have extended layovers before the next trip.

Exactly. Nobody is getting the point that Sydney University is a HUGE public transport patronage generator. Any large university is the equivalent of a mini CBD. You can't put Redfern in the same category as Eastwood, Tuggerah etc. Redfern is the university stop. All trains MUST stop there as much as they need to stop at e.g. Liverpool, Parramatta etc. You don't see anybody arguing for trains to breeze through those.

My experience over the years with trains going into Central is that they spend a lot of time stationary between Redfern and Central anyway so what difference does it make stopping at Redfern?

How many people from the mountains actually travel to Sydney uni? In the article it says 10,000 students from Western Sydney. What Dr Spence did not mention, is how many travel from the Blue Mountains?
If it was a huge number they would have said in the article exactly how many are travelling from the mountains, instead of saying 10,000 students from an irrelevant area. T1 has direct access to Redfern, so I do not see what the issue is.

The whole of South Western Sydney lost access to Redfern for more than a decade and the world moved on. Complete non-issue.

[boronia]

Uni students would be getting on BMT trains within the metro area, but they just count the number getting off at Redfern with no idea where they originated from.

I just read a response from ST/TfNSW on FB where they now claim that that Redfern was deleted for "safety reasons". All those people getting off BMT trains onto an empty platform 1 were at great risk.

It was apparently considered much "safer" for them to change at Strathfield, then get off on platform 3 along with probably twice that number of suburban passengers, onto a narrower platform that probably had a lot of people already waiting to catch trains to the city.

[tonyp]

Perhaps look at it from Sydney University's point of view. It's NSW's largest and Australia's third-largest university, with over 54,000 students and over 5,000 staff. Try to think of how many workplaces of 60,000 people are passed by public transport in Sydney. The slightly smaller UNSW is getting a tram to replace a tram that shouldn't have been removed in the first place. The much smaller Macquarie University gets its own full-time railway station.

Sydney University lost its trams, replaced by woefully inadequate bus services. Luckily hitherto it has had the benefit of a full-time railway station a bit of a hefty walk away. There's no chance of a metro station or tram in the foreseeable future and now the idea of Redfern being downgraded to a part-time station for some services is being talked up. Ease of access is a key factor in attracting students to a university in an environment of competition with other universities.

Transport planning NSW-style.

[aman]

Perhaps look at it from Sydney University's point of view. It's NSW's largest and Australia's third-largest university, with over 54,000 students and over 5,000 staff. Try to think of how many workplaces of 60,000 people are passed by public transport in Sydney. The slightly smaller UNSW is getting a tram to replace a tram that shouldn't have been removed in the first place. The much smaller Macquarie University gets its own full-time railway station.

Sydney University lost its trams, replaced by woefully inadequate bus services. Luckily hitherto it has had the benefit of a full-time railway station a bit of a hefty walk away. There's no chance of a metro station or tram in the foreseeable future and now the idea of Redfern being downgraded to a part-time station for some services is being talked up. Ease of access is a key factor in attracting students to a university in an environment of competition with other universities.

Transport planning NSW-style.

Redfern has always been a "part-time" station for NSW Trainlink trains (and it's predecessors). With 20tph on the T1 line, it wouldn't be that much longer to take a T1 train. Then you wouldn't need to change.
Less uni students on the mountains train freeing up space for people actually from the blue mountains who have no alternative services is a good idea.

Yes, this means that they have to change trains and lose a few minutes. But, surely Sydney can't be held hostage by one university? I understand that it is the largest uni in Sydney, but uni students / staff represent only a small proportion of public transport users.

The reason why Macquarie University has a station is because they just happened to be near a large employment centre (Macquarie Park) and the line ran through there.

If a few minutes is such a problem why aren't they making such a fuss over the East Hills line? And this is a suburban line. If they're not advocating for the East Hills line, then it's double standards. Why hasn't the world caved in in this situation? Sydney uni will have their whinge but uni students/staff will just move on.

[Fleet Lists]

The whole of South Western Sydney lost access to Redfern for more than a decade and the world moved on. Complete non-issue.

Not the whole of South Western Sydney - only the East Hills/Campbelltown line. The Bankstown/Liverpool line was not effected.

[Linto63]

Another reason for cutting Redfern from intercity services may be to do with crowd management. Have seen the relatively narrow platform 2/3 heaving on occasions, although this may have been when there were special events at Homebush. Think it was a mistake not to have replaced the footbridge at the southern end when the old one was condemned and demolished in the 1980s.

[tonyp]

Think it was a mistake not to have replaced the footbridge at the southern end when the old one was condemned and demolished in the 1980s.

That was a big mistake.

[boronia]

Another reason for cutting Redfern from intercity services may be to do with crowd management. Have seen the relatively narrow platform 2/3 heaving on occasions, although this may have been when there were special events at Homebush. Think it was a mistake not to have replaced the footbridge at the southern end when the old one was condemned and demolished in the 1980s.

I'm not sure how having people who might have got off at platform 1, now joining the throngs on platform 3 will improve crowd management.