$1.7 billion order for new Waratah trains signed

[boxythingy]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/pre ... 562yy.html

Gladys is concerned about potential exploitation of workers of Uighur background.

I wonder if these concerns were always at the back of her mind, even before the baton was handed over from Labor and when she became Transport minister with oversight and ultimate responsibility of the Waratah train project.

- She has a Graduate Diploma in International Relations, and so one could safely assume that she would be more cognisant of some of the current developments in China (such as the Xinjiang conflict between two different people groups) when compared with the average person

- No one needs a degree to know this, but her family has suffered by simply being part a particular people group which has suffered atrocities inflicted by another group of people. Different part of the world with parallels in the circumstances.

[rogf24]

Wtf? Do you really need to drag her background into this?

[boxythingy]

These are just objective facts which have been synthesised with the broader context.

Incase I am accused of being biased or prejudiced, the fact that the government which commenced this PPP project betrayed their base: the unions, domestic railway manufacturing industry and its potential workers and ultimately the Australian people who could have been beneficiaries from local production (benefiting from more than just lower costs as a result of reduced burden of taxation fund expenditure).

Their legacy has resulted in the continued lag in the efficient and effective development of the current system which is an impediment as seen in some decisions made which may be compromises in rectifying the legacy issues

[tonyp]

Like the case in Victoria, it's unfair to judge with hindsight when the wider political and human rights context wasn't there (or wasn't known about) at the time these projects were scoped and contracts awarded. Likewise, there's nothing unusual in bureaucrats visiting China to monitor the progress of a project. (The SMH seems to think that's some sort of a scandal.) It is legitimate, on the other hand, to raise this issue in terms of future projects and contracts, now that the situation with China is fully clear and measures are being taken at both national and international levels to restrict dealings with China.

As for local manufacturing of railway and tramway rolling stock, it's been a bit of a cottage industry for some years now because the constant flow of orders (for preferably national standard products) just isn't there. A private venture can't survive on the basis of feast and famine, especially when there's something different required in each state. As an example, the Federal government over some years now has decided that it's in the national interest to sustain a naval shipbuilding program, fed by a constant rollover of orders. However, the price of that (paid by taxpayers) is that these warships typically cost anything from 30 to 50% more than if they were built overseas. The project certainly has benefits, both for national security and the local economy and employment, and the Feds are in a position to carry the costs of that. I don't think the average state government can afford to be so generous with public transport stock, although Victoria and WA do go down that path currently.

I do agree that NSW could do better. The current policy seems to be total abandonment of local sourcing. It perplexes me for example that they're so willing to buy large numbers of buses from Queensland, probably more than Queensland buys itself!

[Linto63]

The current policy seems to be total abandonment of local sourcing. It perplexes me for example that they're so willing to buy large numbers of buses from Queensland, probably more than Queensland buys itself!

No, the contracts to build buses are let via a competitive tendering system, with Bustech, Custom and Volgren all getting a share of the action. If Bustech are winning more orders, then they must be offering better deals more often than the others.

[boronia]

The current policy seems to be total abandonment of local sourcing. It perplexes me for example that they're so willing to buy large numbers of buses from Queensland, probably more than Queensland buys itself!

No, the contracts to build buses are let via a competitive tendering system, with Bustech, Custom and Volgren all getting a share of the action. If Bustech are winning more orders, then they must be offering better deals more often than the others.

Part of the ordering equation would be the manufacturer's production limits, and how long the waiting list is for delivery. I think Custom was "on the nose" for a few years; hopefully Dunn is getting it back together.

[Swift]

Their K280UBs weren't. I know which version was.

[tonyp]

When mentioning Queensland, I wasn't just thinking of Bustech, Volgren too, which had a facility in NSW but it was let go for lack of orders.

[Campbelltown busboy]

Their K280UBs weren't. I know which version was.

Didn't Custom do half of the Busways Scania CB60 order in Adelaide or was the whole order carried out at the Sydney plant witch would of been still based in Smithfield at the time

[Nugget]

Like the case in Victoria, it's unfair to judge with hindsight when the wider political and human rights context wasn't there (or wasn't known about) at the time these projects were scoped and contracts awarded. Likewise, there's nothing unusual in bureaucrats visiting China to monitor the progress of a project. (The SMH seems to think that's some sort of a scandal.) It is legitimate, on the other hand, to raise this issue in terms of future projects and contracts, now that the situation with China is fully clear and measures are being taken at both national and international levels to restrict dealings with China.

How the Chinese labour force works and is sourced is common knowledge, before and after, it's now just part of the containment policy as the west has become scared it will lose it's place in the world.

What needs to be worked out is where you get the best return on investment without the pork barrelling that is part of the tendering process.

[Swift]

I was annoyed when I read in the paper how the Chinese builders were ridiculing the particular specs for the trains that they were contracted to do NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
What's it to you?

[boronia]

When mentioning Queensland, I wasn't just thinking of Bustech, Volgren too, which had a facility in NSW but it was let go for lack of orders.

Bustech is located close to the border, so there is a good chance that some of the employees live in NSW, and even some NSW businesses are supplying materials.

[Linto63]

When mentioning Queensland, I wasn't just thinking of Bustech, Volgren too, which had a facility in NSW but it was let go for lack of orders.

Do Volgren still have a Queensland facility, saw some vehicles being completed for Brisbane Transportat the Dandenong factory a few years ago? IIRC, the NSW plant was established after the NSW government announced it planned to buy 1,000 growth buses. This was scuppered when the program was cancelled after the government changed in 2011.

[Stonesourscotty]

Don't Volgren assemble near Brisbanes Eagle farm depot?

[tonyp]

How the Chinese labour force works and is sourced is common knowledge, before and after, it's now just part of the containment policy as the west has become scared it will lose it's place in the world.

What needs to be worked out is where you get the best return on investment without the pork barrelling that is part of the tendering process.

It's more a case of the rest of the developed world realising that this is more than the just the usual simple case of sweated third world labour that they could conveniently turn a blind eye to and that they are actually dealing with a formidable totalitarian country driven by an unyielding ideology. They previously thought they could contain it and that China would be decent and play the game, but the lesson has actually turned out a harder one than even with Germany in the 1930s and 40s and with Soviet Russia post-war.

China has been far more sophisticated and asymmetric in conducting cold war than the Russians ever were and certainly more than the Germans were with crude real war. The current situation has produced an imperative to disengage with China and start pursuing a Plan B, as Morrison put it. Whether the world will ever again be able to resume normal commercial relationships with China will depend on whether China blinks and compromises, but even that now can't be trusted short of a regime change. Water under the bridge for existing commercial deals, but a need for resetting the landscape for future dealings on the basis that dealing with totalitarian states is a major commercial risk, not to mention a political risk.

[boxythingy]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/urg ... 563ak.html

Constance horrifed and orders urgent investigation into alledged claims.

In terms claims that this issue only converged with "recent" political developments, one only needs to ask a historian who will note Xinjiang is just the latest fad that the West has become concerned with after Tibet. Conflict in that region stems back to the early 20th century

I urge everyone here to have a look at what's going on in Inner Mongolia before you let the mass media "disclose" this information to you

[tonyp]

Attempts to ensure Han supremacy in general date back more than a couple of thousand years! Nothing new in the Chinese historical landscape. It's a concern for us when it starts to impact us. Should you trade with a country that conducts trade and cyber warfare against you?

A spokesman for Downer said the company had investigated the "serious allegations" earlier this year, and CRRC strongly denied the use of Uighur labour.

One Chinese company investigates another. Good one.

[Linto63]

One Chinese company investigates another. Good one.

Except Downer isn't a Chinese company, but an Australian company listed on the ASX with none of its substantial shareholders bring Chinese either.

[boronia]

"CRRC denied..."

Seems more like a Chinese company investigating itself?

[Linto63]

"Downer said the company had investigated", would suggest it did more than just accept "CRRC denied".