STA Observations - July 2016
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
^ The O405NH gas buses run on a lean mixture. If the driver accelerates briefly and then takes their foot off the accelerator, the bus will stall due to the engine being starved. Other ways to stall this type of bus are braking hard and when the centre door is opened and then closed immediately. Some of these classic bloaters certainly do have some power and can take off quickly which is respectable considering that the engine is naturally aspirated. The handling of this type of vehicle can feel cumbersome at times due to the weight of the gas tanks on top of the vehicle.
I have to disagree with you about the OC500LE cng buses, although you may have been on one of the rare ones that actually perform well. These buses do have a greater power output rating and are turbo charged, due to tweaking with the engine, the majority are slow and under performing vehicles all in the name of reducing cng consumption to save money. The majority of these vehicles are slower of the mark and perform badly up hills all compared to the older O405NH gas buses.
Example: Routes 324 & 380 both heading inbound from Watsons Bay to the City. Left turn from Robertson Pl into Old South Head Rd which immediately becomes an uphill ascent as soon as the bus turns left. The driver needs to allow the bus to drop down to 1st gear before making the left turn, manually select 2nd gear and hold that gear all the way up to the top of the hill and then select drive once the revs begin to reach a high level (without red-lining of course). The bus will reach a decent speed of around the 40 km/h mark. Some of this type of bus may be better tuned than others so the revs may reach a higher level quicker, this happens also due to the fact that the hill plateaus off for a few metres before becoming steep again, in this case the driver just backs of the accelerator a little just before the road becomes steep again. One common mistake that some drivers commit is to turn the corner from Robertson Pl into Old South Head Rd with a little bit of momentum in 2nd gear hoping that this will assist the bus in climbing the hill, the bus will stay in 2nd gear all the way up the hill and will only reach a maximum speed of 20 - 50 km/h. At least this model does not stall. The braking in these buses is a whole different story.
The buses are programmed to not allow the engine to rev very high at all, including when driving up hills and the transmission will only change gears when the bus reaches a critically low speed which is not practical from an operational point of view. The smallest incline will affect the OC500LE cng: you can feel the vehicle lose speed, the physical momentum of the vehicles is lost and literally absorbed due to the sheer weight of the (cng) vehicle, the revs slowly build up to a point where they will go no higher and then the gears will change when it is too late. An example of this happens on the ED heading South when using the Eastern suburbs exit and then using Moore Park Rd exit, the exit speed is 60 km/h on a flat surface after climbing a long incline and as the exit rounds a sharp left bend, the road is inclined once again to meet Moore Park Rd. the road incline is not very long in distance and not too steep at all yet the OC500LE cng drops down to 40 km/h. Diesel buses will easily maintain the posted 80 km/h speed limit as the road inclines as well as the road incline at the 60 km/h exit ramp.
In recent years the OC500LE cng buses at Ryde depot received improvements to the engine management system due to so many complaints from drivers sent to the RBTU, sometimes the bus was so slow that it could not cross through an intersection from a stand still position (from a green light) and make it to the other side before the traffic lights turned red. 2013 ST was sent to W during the upgrade period and therefore missed out, this bus has to be the slowest bus in the entire world, even when the bus is carrying fresh air you would swear that it was carrying a full load of passengers. There are a number of OC500LE cng buses at Waverley depot that have received improvements to the engine management system, it certainly does makes a positive difference. It is understandable why some drivers are embarrassed to drive this vehicles up Bondi Rd with a standing load of passengers travelling at a maximum speed of 15 km/h.
The Euro V EEV version of the OC500LE cng seem to perform better compared to the Euro IV version. The Euro V EEV are numbered 2152, 2153; 2172-2178; 2185-2190; 2198-2200, 2214-2217; 2234; 2246-2248; 2256; 2272, 2273, 2283, 2284; 2290-2294; 2310-2315 & 2323-2325. Two other differences which are almost undetectable to most punters is the different dash board as well as the kick down function being enabled - disabled in the Euro IV version.
Overall I think that there are positives and negatives for all models and versions mentioned.
I have to disagree with you about the OC500LE cng buses, although you may have been on one of the rare ones that actually perform well. These buses do have a greater power output rating and are turbo charged, due to tweaking with the engine, the majority are slow and under performing vehicles all in the name of reducing cng consumption to save money. The majority of these vehicles are slower of the mark and perform badly up hills all compared to the older O405NH gas buses.
Example: Routes 324 & 380 both heading inbound from Watsons Bay to the City. Left turn from Robertson Pl into Old South Head Rd which immediately becomes an uphill ascent as soon as the bus turns left. The driver needs to allow the bus to drop down to 1st gear before making the left turn, manually select 2nd gear and hold that gear all the way up to the top of the hill and then select drive once the revs begin to reach a high level (without red-lining of course). The bus will reach a decent speed of around the 40 km/h mark. Some of this type of bus may be better tuned than others so the revs may reach a higher level quicker, this happens also due to the fact that the hill plateaus off for a few metres before becoming steep again, in this case the driver just backs of the accelerator a little just before the road becomes steep again. One common mistake that some drivers commit is to turn the corner from Robertson Pl into Old South Head Rd with a little bit of momentum in 2nd gear hoping that this will assist the bus in climbing the hill, the bus will stay in 2nd gear all the way up the hill and will only reach a maximum speed of 20 - 50 km/h. At least this model does not stall. The braking in these buses is a whole different story.
The buses are programmed to not allow the engine to rev very high at all, including when driving up hills and the transmission will only change gears when the bus reaches a critically low speed which is not practical from an operational point of view. The smallest incline will affect the OC500LE cng: you can feel the vehicle lose speed, the physical momentum of the vehicles is lost and literally absorbed due to the sheer weight of the (cng) vehicle, the revs slowly build up to a point where they will go no higher and then the gears will change when it is too late. An example of this happens on the ED heading South when using the Eastern suburbs exit and then using Moore Park Rd exit, the exit speed is 60 km/h on a flat surface after climbing a long incline and as the exit rounds a sharp left bend, the road is inclined once again to meet Moore Park Rd. the road incline is not very long in distance and not too steep at all yet the OC500LE cng drops down to 40 km/h. Diesel buses will easily maintain the posted 80 km/h speed limit as the road inclines as well as the road incline at the 60 km/h exit ramp.
In recent years the OC500LE cng buses at Ryde depot received improvements to the engine management system due to so many complaints from drivers sent to the RBTU, sometimes the bus was so slow that it could not cross through an intersection from a stand still position (from a green light) and make it to the other side before the traffic lights turned red. 2013 ST was sent to W during the upgrade period and therefore missed out, this bus has to be the slowest bus in the entire world, even when the bus is carrying fresh air you would swear that it was carrying a full load of passengers. There are a number of OC500LE cng buses at Waverley depot that have received improvements to the engine management system, it certainly does makes a positive difference. It is understandable why some drivers are embarrassed to drive this vehicles up Bondi Rd with a standing load of passengers travelling at a maximum speed of 15 km/h.
The Euro V EEV version of the OC500LE cng seem to perform better compared to the Euro IV version. The Euro V EEV are numbered 2152, 2153; 2172-2178; 2185-2190; 2198-2200, 2214-2217; 2234; 2246-2248; 2256; 2272, 2273, 2283, 2284; 2290-2294; 2310-2315 & 2323-2325. Two other differences which are almost undetectable to most punters is the different dash board as well as the kick down function being enabled - disabled in the Euro IV version.
Overall I think that there are positives and negatives for all models and versions mentioned.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Yeah I noticed the different dashboards amongst the OC 500LE CNGs. Are there any issues with the P & L OC 500LE CNGs since they seem to earliest deliveries. The P OC 500LE CNGs seem to struggle a bit going through the hiller parts of the Eastern Suburbs. It can really noticeable good case High St UNSW. Often there is a someone who tries to reverse into a spot in High St, stops the whole lane and the bus is midway up the hill it takes forever to get going again and to reach the top of the hill.
But aren't the Volvo B12BLEs the worse with fuel consumption in terms of the newer models though they are rockets it was funny seeing a B12 race a gassie up from Druitt street onto the Western Distributor.
One thing is though using the Volvo B12BLEAs 1.5 door models on short runs from Wynyard to Spit Junction or Mosman Junction. The unloading can be real slow particularly in the evening peak. They're good at carrying passengers but then when 20 people need to exit the bus at like Big Bear Centre can cause an issue. Even a Scania L113TRB unloads faster.
I've noticed patronage quite bad overcrowding lately between Rockdale and Eastgardens in the off-peak on the 400. The bus seems to already be full by the time it gets to Mascot Station let alone anybody wanting to board at Mascot Shops. Doesn't help the 301 often arrives like 2 mins after the 400.
The new 348 timetable hasn't even helped punctuality like off-peak running its always at least 5 mins late, still has the 20 min peak hour delays. Though can explain last Saturday there was a 1:57 348 service from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek then there was another 348 Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek serivce 5 mins after this happened like every hour for the next three hours weirdly. They weren't late the 348 is half-hourly on Saturday these extra services showed up on Trip View and Next There, I also saw them right behind each other as I got off in Alexandria.
But aren't the Volvo B12BLEs the worse with fuel consumption in terms of the newer models though they are rockets it was funny seeing a B12 race a gassie up from Druitt street onto the Western Distributor.
One thing is though using the Volvo B12BLEAs 1.5 door models on short runs from Wynyard to Spit Junction or Mosman Junction. The unloading can be real slow particularly in the evening peak. They're good at carrying passengers but then when 20 people need to exit the bus at like Big Bear Centre can cause an issue. Even a Scania L113TRB unloads faster.
I've noticed patronage quite bad overcrowding lately between Rockdale and Eastgardens in the off-peak on the 400. The bus seems to already be full by the time it gets to Mascot Station let alone anybody wanting to board at Mascot Shops. Doesn't help the 301 often arrives like 2 mins after the 400.
The new 348 timetable hasn't even helped punctuality like off-peak running its always at least 5 mins late, still has the 20 min peak hour delays. Though can explain last Saturday there was a 1:57 348 service from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek then there was another 348 Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek serivce 5 mins after this happened like every hour for the next three hours weirdly. They weren't late the 348 is half-hourly on Saturday these extra services showed up on Trip View and Next There, I also saw them right behind each other as I got off in Alexandria.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
^ The Volvo B12BLEA buses in the North often special empty in both directions between the city and various termini on the Northern Beaches in both the AM peak and the PM peak as they make there way to the next terminus or depot. To cut out the dead running, these buses may be scheduled to operate short trips and then special to the depot or next terminus. The schedulers due not look at dwell times for an artic in such services, only the fact of trying to squeeze out as much work as possible from a large vehicle.
The Volvo B12B's in various formats with a ZF transmission are all quite quick and being a diesel bus they will last a long time on the road, although I'm not sure why these buses weren't tweaked to save in fuel costs. The OC500LE cng was also tweaked so the bus would last out on the road for a longer period before having to be refueled.
The Volvo B12B's in various formats with a ZF transmission are all quite quick and being a diesel bus they will last a long time on the road, although I'm not sure why these buses weren't tweaked to save in fuel costs. The OC500LE cng was also tweaked so the bus would last out on the road for a longer period before having to be refueled.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
For the Euro V version of the OC500LE, I thought the main difference was the different airconditioner.
I've always told CB60s apart by air-con:
OC500LE CNG --> Thermo King AC at back
B12BLE --> Thermo King AC at front
OC500LE Diesel --> Denso AC at front
I've always told CB60s apart by air-con:
OC500LE CNG --> Thermo King AC at back
B12BLE --> Thermo King AC at front
OC500LE Diesel --> Denso AC at front
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
I always looked for the badge on the front.sunnyyan wrote:For the Euro V version of the OC500LE, I thought the main difference was the different airconditioner.
I've always told CB60s apart by air-con:
OC500LE CNG --> Thermo King AC at back
B12BLE --> Thermo King AC at front
OC500LE Diesel --> Denso AC at front
Ringer of bus bells and tram gongs.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Some of the B12BLE CB60s have Cooltek ACs on the front mostly the newer ones the ones based at M & Y.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
^ Those Volvos were growth buses added to the original order of 250 x units.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Does anybody know what depot these next deliveries of VSTs (Scania K310UBs) are going to is it going to P depot ?
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Will they be replacing the old CNG Scania's?
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
I've been seeing a few Scania Gassies out and about this weekend mostly from W depot due ESR trackwork. Also few Scania L113CRLs from R which generally don't make an appearance on weekends.
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Did you say310UB?Frosty wrote:Does anybody know what depot these next deliveries of VSTs (Scania K310UBs) are going to is it going to P depot ?
I wonder how long until they wind back the horses to proper K280UB levels?
The older K280s are really K230UBs now I bet.
We can't entrust STA drivers to handle all the horses as they left the factory now can we?
No, must cut them back and tire the drivers out ( mentally) to save a few drops of already crap quality diesel fuel.
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Is there any basis for such a wild statement?Swift wrote: The older K280s are really K230UBs now I bet.
We can't entrust STA drivers to handle all the horses as they left the factory now can we?
No, must cut them back and tire the drivers out ( mentally) to save a few drops of already crap quality diesel fuel.
Living in the Shire.
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Fuel: what I heard from many different people years ago.
Power cutbacks. Driving powerful 0305s that had been transferred from other depots only to find them much less powerful a couple of weeks later.
Scania L113 low floors that all became slugs to drive after being fantastically powerful in the beginning.
What an earlier poster has said in his lengthy post mentioning cut backs to save fuel on the O500 gas buses.
The L113s I drove started off only needing a light tap on the accelerator to get moving, later on having a two second delay in moving at all even when you floored it to the boards.
Power cutbacks. Driving powerful 0305s that had been transferred from other depots only to find them much less powerful a couple of weeks later.
Scania L113 low floors that all became slugs to drive after being fantastically powerful in the beginning.
What an earlier poster has said in his lengthy post mentioning cut backs to save fuel on the O500 gas buses.
The L113s I drove started off only needing a light tap on the accelerator to get moving, later on having a two second delay in moving at all even when you floored it to the boards.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Might also be dependent on when they were last serviced? 12 or so years ago the L94s at Shorelink were notorious for getting very sluggish and laggy as they came close to servicing date. After the service they'd be comparative rockets again!Swift wrote:Fuel: what I heard from many different people years ago.
Power cutbacks. Driving powerful 0305s that had been transferred from other depots only to find them much less powerful a couple of weeks later.
Scania L113 low floors that all became slugs to drive after being fantastically powerful in the beginning.
What an earlier poster has said in his lengthy post mentioning cut backs to save fuel on the O500 gas buses.
The L113s I drove started off only needing a light tap on the accelerator to get moving, later on having a two second delay in moving at all even when you floored it to the boards.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
The STA has been blanketing Rhodes with dodgy route markers for 533 and 526 in recent days. Now they've taken to four Switch off Engine signs within 100 m!
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Saw something weird this morning saw P bus 4873 do a 348 run from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek. Saw it around 9:30 past Kensington. Never knew P did a 348 run is it covering for failed R or T bus.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Don't the buses from P/R/W get all tossed around the Eastern depots anyway?Frosty wrote:Saw something weird this morning saw P bus 4873 do a 348 run from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek. Saw it around 9:30 past Kensington. Never knew P did a 348 run is it covering for failed R or T bus.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
I know P & W buses can be swapped around but not R except for bendies. Cross-town routes generally aren't always operated by all the eastern depots. Case 370,348,418.swtt wrote:Don't the buses from P/R/W get all tossed around the Eastern depots anyway?Frosty wrote:Saw something weird this morning saw P bus 4873 do a 348 run from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek. Saw it around 9:30 past Kensington. Never knew P did a 348 run is it covering for failed R or T bus.
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Does this regulation only apply when buses are not operating a service and simply laying over at an interchange or stop? And does this rule take place in every bus zone, whether it be stop, station or interchange?swtt wrote:
The STA has been blanketing Rhodes with dodgy route markers for 533 and 526 in recent days. Now they've taken to four Switch off Engine signs within 100 m!
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Happy to be corrected but it is in place at all termini to comply with noise laws as well as some other matter (couldnt remember if it was safety or mechanical).Hawkeye wrote:Does this regulation only apply when buses are not operating a service and simply laying over at an interchange or stop? And does this rule take place in every bus zone, whether it be stop, station or interchange?
And yes, it only applies to buses laying over for more than the designated period on the sign (but generally speaking its 2 minutes).
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Usually at termini where the locals ring up and complain about the noise/smells.
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
P operated the rte 348 between November 2015 and the end of school holidays in January 2016 . Since about the beginning of July, P are once again operating the same two trips as previously operated, ex BJI 08:52 and ex Wolli Crk Stn 09:51.Frosty wrote:Saw something weird this morning saw P bus 4873 do a 348 run from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek. Saw it around 9:30 past Kensington. Never knew P did a 348 run is it covering for failed R or T bus.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
That messy procedure stopped a few years ago around the time of 'optimisation'.swtt wrote:Don't the buses from P/R/W get all tossed around the Eastern depots anyway?Frosty wrote:Saw something weird this morning saw P bus 4873 do a 348 run from Bondi Jn to Wolli Creek. Saw it around 9:30 past Kensington. Never knew P did a 348 run is it covering for failed R or T bus.
Re: STA Observations - July 2016
Yesterday, saw one of Kingsgrove's CB80s at Campsie, displaying OPERATING FOR SYDNEY FERRIES on the desto
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Re: STA Observations - July 2016
As I was using an ATM at Maroubra Jcn this evening, the distinct sound of a Scania L113 low floor idle appeared behind me. It was 3712 on the 400 to Bondi Jcn. It felt unusual after being so accustomed to Bustech VSTs on that run in the last year or so.
It felt abit like a blast from the past!
It felt abit like a blast from the past!
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.