New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

[boronia]

I mean it says last updated “14th April”, today. Would they not have changed it to next few weeks on this update page by now or.?

"Updated" usually actually means "updated to".

A lot of documents come up like that. e.g. timetables

[Fleet Lists]

While we had Nick Greiner who did not manage to achieve the same thing.

[mandonov]

I mean it says last updated “14th April”, today. Would they not have changed it to next few weeks on this update page by now or.?

An off the cuff comment by a minister is not an official timeline, so I don’t know why you’re so hung up on the wording. Even ‘a couple of months’ is just a guess because who knows what the union could do in that time.

The more they announce the coming arrival of the train in the media the more pressure is put on the union to budge from their position, so expect more false starts until one side gives in.

[matthewg]

Most railways in the world have 2 man crews in a driver and guard/conductor role.

In Germany there is often a 2nd person on long-distance trains, but they are not a guard in the same manner as NSW passenger trains - they are more a passenger services attendant. The safeworking of the train is entirely the responsibility of the driver.
Basically what NSW wants to do with the NIF.

[Jurassic_Joke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYI3uSpuGP4

[Campbelltown busboy]

In Germany there is often a 2nd person on long-distance trains, but they are not a guard in the same manner as NSW passenger trains - they are more a passenger services attendant. The safeworking of the train is entirely the responsibility of the driver.
Basically what NSW wants to do with the NIF.

The government have to deal with the union that don’t like this train. The government has to tell the RTBU that the government is in charge of how trains are crewed not the union

[Fleet Lists]

It is NOT a matter of the union not liking the train. The union purely does not want to lose staff positions. Let us not confuse the issue.

[Transtopic]

The smart thing for the government to do, would be to offer the RTBU the option of redeploying guards to available positions with similar pay ranks, retraining as drivers or customer service attendants, or for those who cannot or choose not to be redeployed, offering generous one-off redundancy packages.

The government should have realised that there would be a cost in converting to Driver Only Operation, rather than thinking they could just out muscle the union to give in, no matter how reluctantly. The up front cost will be miniscule compared with the long term savings in operating costs and the government should have factored that in with the total project cost. The union would also be smart to realise that the writing is on the wall and negotiate the best outcome for their members, rather than making up spurious excuses based on safety issues to justify their retention.

In fact it's astounding that they have left this to the last minute rather than negotiating with the union when the trains were first ordered. It was obvious at the time that the intention was to eliminate guards.

This is only just the beginning. The Waratahs have also been designed to allow for easy conversion to DOO (as well as ATO) and it's inevitable that suburban guards will also be eliminated once the ATP/ATO upgrade of the whole network is completed. One would hope that they would learn from the current experience and plan well ahead to resolve any disputes.

[boronia]

If you eliminate, say, 50 guard positions on the NIFs, you may be able to redeploy those existing people into other vacant positions, but you still ultimately end up with 50 less union members, which would be what the union is concerned about.

[Linto63]

As long as we have unattended stations, disabled passengers and curved platforms, we will have guards. Both government and union have been aware of the impending issue since the trains were ordered, it's a case of who blinks first and that will only happen at the death.

[Transtopic]

As long as we have unattended stations, disabled passengers and curved platforms, we will have guards. Both government and union have been aware of the impending issue since the trains were ordered, it's a case of who blinks first and that will only happen at the death.

How does Melbourne cope then with its suburban trains which don't have guards?

[boronia]

Presumably attended stations.

[tonyp]

You could ask the same of Brisbane and Adelaide. For the few stations on the Perth system that still have non-compliant platform gaps there is a 1800 number that mobility aid users can phone an hour before arrival. I don't know whether they send somebody to the station or the driver deals with it.

[Off The Rails]

(Re: Perth comment)
The driver won't deal with it. They send someone out (usually a station attendant, but will also send transit security if needed).

Cheers!

[Linto63]

It can be handled by the driver, as happens in other train cities and on the light rail, but can be a painfully slow process. All of today's trains are built with DOO capability, doesn't necessarily mean they will be operated that way.

It will come down to does the government have the stomach for a protracted fight. Given that it may be forced to the polls earlier than planned, probably doesn't want to be dealing with the angst strike action would incur.

[grog]

NSW has fixed terms, the next election is March 2023

[Linto63]

Not if it loses a vote of no confidence, it is already gone from majority to minority government and a couple more members have ICAC investigations pending.

[rogf24]

Presumably attended stations.

A lot of stations now have a DDA compliant hump at the first door so wheelchair users can just get on board. Newer stations (as in the very, very recent level crossing removed ones) are built with a very small gap that isn't DDA compliant but matches with the train door very well that I've seen some wheelchair users just use that instead of the first door (which they're supposed to). At older stations with no hump, then the driver gets out and deploys the ramp themselves at the first door.

Pic from South Morang

[tonyp]

Wheelchairs can get across horizontal gaps wider than that specified in the 2002 regulations and wheelchair and scooter users would know what they can tackle safely. The issue is often more the vertical gap.

[Jurassic_Joke]

What’s the difference in pay between traditional guard and the new customer service guard?

[matthewg]

What’s the difference in pay between traditional guard and the new customer service guard?

The 'customer service' officer will have no safe-working role and will be thus paid accordingly (ie less than a safe working qualified guard).
These CSOs would presumably be required to patrol the train regularly and not hide away from the passengers like a 'guard' does'.

Ultimately it's a money issue as always. The Union is at least sensible enough to not mention the money issue and is pushing the safety angle.

Guards in the traditional sense are an endangered species. That's why the union is fighting so hard.

Personally, I think if the union pushes too hard all they will do is accelerate the governments desire to implement GoA3 or 4 automation and get rid of the drivers too. Suddenly the Sydney Trains ATO project will get more funding and 'feature enhancement'. Already seeing that in the way the NSW Government is all gung ho about metro expansion and new metro lines but has little love for the 'conventional' network.

And don't think it won't happen - unattended automatic train operation is a mature technology. It's just in many cases it's been too expensive to implement for the benefits gained. But if the union goes in hard, that equation will change.

[moa999]

Agreed it's very short term thinking.

Some chance that the future for the Tangara will be decided this term

[Linto63]

And don't think it won't happen - unattended automatic train operation is a mature technology.

On stand alone lines like the metro yes, but not on classic lines with multiple disciplines of trains, freight etc. It's a bit like driverless cars, sounds great but the practicality of implementing means it's unlikely to ever happen.

[Transtopic]

And don't think it won't happen - unattended automatic train operation is a mature technology.

On stand alone lines like the metro yes, but not on classic lines with multiple disciplines of trains, freight etc. It's a bit like driverless cars, sounds great but the practicality of implementing means it's unlikely to ever happen.

Agree. There would be additional cost involved in isolating automated (driverless) operation from other adjoining rail services on the legacy network, which would make its implementation economically questionable, compared with the Level GoA2 with a driver monitoring the system, which in an operational sense gives the same benefits.

[matthewg]

And don't think it won't happen - unattended automatic train operation is a mature technology.

On stand alone lines like the metro yes, but not on classic lines with multiple disciplines of trains, freight etc. It's a bit like driverless cars, sounds great but the practicality of implementing means it's unlikely to ever happen.

The technology is more than good enough now.

I work with people developing hardware and software for these things, the only thing stopping driverless cars is social acceptance, not technology, the tech is already better than the majority of human drivers.

As a society, we accept that people kill other people on the roads by the 100s, but if even one autonomous car does, that's unacceptable. At some point, probably driven by insurance, this equation will change.


Do not think a sufficiently motivated government/transport management couldn't implement unattended ATO on the 'conventional' network. The technology exists and is mature. Implementation would be difficult and that holds it back, but if the 'current arrangements' get too difficult, that implementation pain starts to look like the better option going forward.
The current Sydney Trains 'Digital train control project' will be laying most of the groundwork for automatic operation. Once signal indications are relayed to the cab instead of lineside signals, the messy bit has been done.

There are heavy haul trains running in this country right now with nobody on board at all. They run from port to mine and back again by themselves. DB has even experimented with automated 'trip trains' with a self-driving locomotive taking wagons from yards to industrial sidings.