New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Linto63 »

Alstom and Siemens are both scheduled to introduce battery trains in 2023, both on routes of 80km. Alstom already has hydrogen trains in service while Siemens has one under development, but is a few years away. Both may turn out to be sustainable for long distance services, but based on how long it has taken to get where we are now, probably at least a decade away.
moa999
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by moa999 »

Aurora wrote:It won’t be anytime soon anyway. The unions have not indicated at all that they will sign this train off in its existing form.
From reading the press..

Is the only issue that if the guard opens the door to look up and down the platform, then it blocks one of the cameras?

Which is not exactly an issue because if you are looking outside the train, you obviously aren't looking at the screen.
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:38 pm Given that the majority of trains on these lines continue beyond these two terminals, unlikely. The Short North wires will see more use with the XPT and Xplorer replacements to be bi-mode, and further down the track, if we are going to get serious about emissions, the reintroduction of electric locomotives by freight operators will have to be considered.
The freight operators would have to roll the electric locomotive idea out nation wide as there is interstate rail freight. Then there is the locomotive leasing deal made between Journey Beyond and Pacific National for Journey Beyond to use Pacific National locomotives to lead trains like the Indian Pacific
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BroadGauge
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by BroadGauge »

jpp42 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:55 amSurely the maintenance costs for this section must be very high compared to the limited amount of electric-hauled passenger service. The same might apply north of Gosford or south of Wollongong?
What is your definition of a "limited amount" of electric services? There are 2 trains per hour north of Gosford during the middle of the day, and in peak there are 7 trains during the busiest hour.

Based on that definition, there are some parts of the suburban network in Sydney that would be candidates for de-electrification, such as the Richmond line which only runs 2 trains per hour in peak.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

BroadGauge wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:06 am Based on that definition, there are some parts of the suburban network in Sydney that would be candidates for de-electrification, such as the Richmond line which only runs 2 trains per hour in peak.
The line has to be duplicated in sections between Schofields and Richmond as a large part of the line north west of Schofields is still single line with a couple of crossover points where a train going one way has to wait for the train heading in the other direction so too many trains might end in a backlog of trains on the line. Plus there is the issue of Cumberland line trunbacks at Schofields. So they need to duplicate the line the whole way and ether extend the Cumberland line to Richmond full time or cut it back to Blacktown
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gilberations
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

Richmond duplication has several obstacles including major viaduct duplication, plus Riverstone’s level crossings would need to be redone
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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Or better still, eliminated?

But why is the Richmond line being discussed in a thread about NIFs?
Last edited by boronia on Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

moa999 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:24 pm
Aurora wrote:It won’t be anytime soon anyway. The unions have not indicated at all that they will sign this train off in its existing form.
From reading the press..

Is the only issue that if the guard opens the door to look up and down the platform, then it blocks one of the cameras?

Which is not exactly an issue because if you are looking outside the train, you obviously aren't looking at the screen.
The guard might not be looking at the screen at the time, but that camera is recording "evidence" of events, and the union would argue that it could be lost if blocked by the open door??
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Mr Twig
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Mr Twig »

boronia wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:35 pm
moa999 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:24 pm From reading the press..

Is the only issue that if the guard opens the door to look up and down the platform, then it blocks one of the cameras?

Which is not exactly an issue because if you are looking outside the train, you obviously aren't looking at the screen.
The guard might not be looking at the screen at the time, but that camera is recording "evidence" of events, and the union would argue that it could be lost if blocked by the open door??
Have I missed something? These trains won't have Guards.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

From memory, they’ll have something like “Customer Service Guard”, perhaps a bit similar to the on board staff you see on the Metro.
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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

I recall Constance announcing a couple of months ago that guards would be employed?
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matthewg
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by matthewg »

The fight is basically the Union (doing what a union is expected to do) protecting the job, pay and conditions of the members.

The government on the other hand is trying to introduce new technology that basically makes one of the jobs on the train obsolete.

These trains have been designed and built not to require a 'guard' in the traditional sense. Of course, the Union is upset, as the train doesn't require two fully qualified (and appropriately paid) staff on board. Fewer jobs for their members.

And despite Union PR otherwise, the fair work commission didn't rule that Driver Only Operation trains are unsafe, they ruled that TfNSW/NSW Trains had not gone through the proper consultation process with its employees over changes to roles.

Passenger trains all over the world (some even double-deckers) run driver-only safely. Really the only places that still run trains with 2 (safeworking qualified) crew onboard are locations that still have strong unions and the local operator hasn't been able to bring DOO in against union opposition. (France and parts of the UK spring to mind).
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

A full video run-through of the train:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC7c0tBINF0

The arrangements in the end compartments for people who can't, or don't want to, climb stairs are abysmal. The Oscars, for all their faults, at least had a decent amount of longitudinal seating on the platform level, while the V sets (although not accessible in the current sense) had substantial platform-level seating, with luggage racks too. This comes from the mentality that people in wheelchairs are the only people with mobility issues that have to be considered when in fact the figure is more like about 20% of the population, including customers like parents with prams. And who is seriously going to carry a suitcase up and down stairs to get to a luggage rack? The fixed saloon seating has already been well-aired in feedback. Watch the rush for forward-facing seating at stations. For a train serving long journey times, this design rates a C. If the seats turn out to be less comfortable than a V set's, that will become a C minus. It has almost nothing going for it other than USB ports and maybe the seat-back tables and better toilets.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by BAMBAM »

matthewg wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:01 am The fight is basically the Union (doing what a union is expected to do) protecting the job, pay and conditions of the members.

The government on the other hand is trying to introduce new technology that basically makes one of the jobs on the train obsolete.

These trains have been designed and built not to require a 'guard' in the traditional sense. Of course, the Union is upset, as the train doesn't require two fully qualified (and appropriately paid) staff on board. Fewer jobs for their members.

And despite Union PR otherwise, the fair work commission didn't rule that Driver Only Operation trains are unsafe, they ruled that TfNSW/NSW Trains had not gone through the proper consultation process with its employees over changes to roles.

Passenger trains all over the world (some even double-deckers) run driver-only safely. Really the only places that still run trains with 2 (safeworking qualified) crew onboard are locations that still have strong unions and the local operator hasn't been able to bring DOO in against union opposition. (France and parts of the UK spring to mind).
Japan still run its train with driver and guard operations, both on underground metro and long distance services. I don't think Japan is union orientated.
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boronia
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by boronia »

Melbourne hasn't had suburban train guards for almost 30 years. Don't they have the same union down there?
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tonyp
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:05 pm Melbourne hasn't had suburban train guards for almost 30 years. Don't they have the same union down there?
It's also the same union that allows all-door boarding on buses in Brisbane but not in Sydney. The Rail, Tram and Inconsistency Union.
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swtt
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by swtt »

BAMBAM wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 am Japan still run its train with driver and guard operations, both on underground metro and long distance services. I don't think Japan is union orientated.
They need more people working on platforms too to push people right into the carriage. Totally different operations, and it probably warrants such a second safeworking person.
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gilberations
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

Most railways in the world have 2 man crews in a driver and guard/conductor role.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by tonyp »

gilberations wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:22 pm Most railways in the world have 2 man crews in a driver and guard/conductor role.
I don't think that's the case on commuter trains. Long distance trains maybe.
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gilberations
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by gilberations »

Metros are the only examples I can see where they’re less likley to have a guard/conductor.

DOO usually is a conductor as the driver, but again it’s rare. Even the New York City subway has a guard
moa999
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by moa999 »

I'm surprised they ever let go of the Fireman position.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... city-fleet

Latest update confirms that the project is all but delayed again, no second guesses why. We are indeed looking at “next couple of months” instead of “next couple of weeks” as the minister said at the start of this month.
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Fleet Lists »

Actually that has been there since the day that the minister made the "next few weeks" statement.
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Jurassic_Joke
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

I mean it says last updated “14th April”, today. Would they not have changed it to next few weeks on this update page by now or.?
Glen
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Re: New Intercity Fleet Purchases/Observation

Post by Glen »

boronia wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:05 pm Melbourne hasn't had suburban train guards for almost 30 years. Don't they have the same union down there?
Yes, but they also had Jeff Kennett. :lol:
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