Use of Back Door on Buses

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tonyp
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:

Image
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Cazza »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:
Swift wrote:^ Try convincing Sydney Transport bosses. Like talking to a besser block wall.
The whole Transport For NSW thought process is union based and if they don't consult with the RTBU about things like all door boarding or other sensible ideas when it comes to public transport in Sydney then there will be a strike because the union wasn't told and the government only cares about what they want and the union won't take it
Just a question, how can Transport for NSW be so union based if it's a government run organisation and that government in charge went against the unions in regards to the Inner West bus privatisation just a few years ago?

I understand that unions have a strong influence or stance in this industry (in Brisbane too from what I'm aware), however, I wouldn't go as far to say that the government is only here to make the RTBU happy. Behind closed doors, I'm sure the government (from both sides to be honest with you) will be fed up with some unions at some point in time.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:

Image
The RTBU would be a calling for a nation wide state of quarantine to protect their members if there's such a thing as a state of quarantine
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Merc1107 »

tonyp wrote:... where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors.
I think there are several reasons such an initiative would fall flat on its face here in Australia:

- Rigid buses have only a single door (and maybe only a half-width/single-leaf affair), so you'd be working with one door only in some cases
- Accessibility issues with the back doors where there mightn't be the manoeuvring space for prams/wheelchairs etc, or worse yet, steps to contend with!
- Smart-card payment systems may not work on the back doors by default. In Perth, for example, if you tag on at the back door you'll be slugged a default fare if the ticketing equipment hasn't had its default overridden. This could probably be resolved without much fuss, though. The other issue with ticketing is (potentially) a lack of sufficient validators at the back doors - we only have one per door here in Perth and Darwin buses have only one at the front
- Air-conditioning - Unlike other parts of the world where A/C mightn't be the norm, there are few (if any) fresh-air ventilation options on most service buses here. I don't know how easily the virus can spread via air-conditioning systems, but this would be more of a concern for the driver, spending hours in a potentially-contaminated environment versus passengers only spending a few minutes on the bus.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlighted as such in timetables.

I believe from reading manufacturers literature that European buses tend to have a separate aircon unit for the driver but perhaps it's different here.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlight gated as such in timetables.
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by J_Busworth »

[quote="Campbelltown busboy"
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU[/quote]

All STA and a good amount of TSA drivers are with the RTBU. Historically, most of the buses with back doors have been buses operated by RTBU members.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

Some other photos plucked from a Facebook group.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote:See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door buses
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door buses
Nobody here is demanding doors behind the rear axle, so manufacturers are not bothering to convert low-floor LHD to RHD for this feature. Only Daimler Benz is floating this on the Australian market but there have been no takers so far and no prototype bus. You can have all-door boarding with any number of doors from two upwards.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

In the late 70s and early 80s with the Bedfordsauruses private operators dished out, they offered egress. The paranoid doofuses can't even offer that now in this complete backwater operating environment they IMPOSE on us.
The drivers are well and truly programmed as we witnessed during the pink link.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

A good demonstration at the end of the video in this article of one reason why stairs in bus aisles are a bad thing:

https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... NutAgGmsJU
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

An interesting University of Sydney study of all-door boarding:

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/del ... 97F4F0674D

If you have trouble opening it, it was linked from here:

https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ ... 1/art00006#

Figure 1 shows the boarding time reduction per number of doors. Although the hypothetical conclusion may be that for lower passenger volumes, one door may be more effective overall, the issue is that you can't confuse the customers. You either do it for all or don't do it at all.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Transport Canberra pointing the way to the future?

Image

The only problem is that it's sabotaged for people with "invisible" mobility impairments by their Bustechs and Combo artics with stepped entries!
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by boronia »

There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote:There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

Swift wrote: Stubborn RTBU.
The RTBU never had a problem with it in Brisbane and still doesn't apparently, so I'm sure they don't have double standards for NSW. Someone elsewhere now tells me the OTSI is the culprit in NSW and there's legislation about it, but I've never seen any regulation, let alone legislation in NSW banning all-door boarding, otherwise a certain operator wouldn't be practising it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by rogf24 »

tonyp wrote:
rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.

(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.
I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

rogf24 wrote:I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.
I'm getting that more from a press release I saw.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by tonyp »

I don't want to overload the Covid 19 thread with this sort of thing and it's very relevant here. A sudden declaration from TWU NSW:
https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/

The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
Sounds like they've been beaten into submission by TfNSW and RTBU. The prioritisation of this principle over the health of their members in the present environment is pretty sick, to put it mildly.

Funnily enough, both TWU and RTBU members use this "incredibly dangerous" practice in several other states and territories, in some cases for some years, but only in NSW it's somehow a deadly issue. I'm lost for polite words.

Look at the item just posted in the Covid 19 thread from their counterpart, the TWU in USA, for the polar opposite attitude.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Swift »

tonyp wrote:I don't want to overload the Covid 19 thread with this sort of thing and it's very relevant here. A sudden declaration from TWU NSW:
https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/

The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
Sounds like they've been beaten into submission by TfNSW and RTBU. The prioritisation of this principle over the health of their members in the present environment is pretty sick, to put it mildly.

Funnily enough, both TWU and RTBU members use this "incredibly dangerous" practice in several other states and territories, in some cases for some years, but only in NSW it's somehow a deadly issue. I'm lost for polite words.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Post by Merc1107 »

Swift wrote:What will it take fit them to pull their heads out of their ###ses?
If members have the choice of leaving the Union, they could (and should!) threaten to withdrawn their financial support in writing. If enough members did so, they'd sit up, pay attention and change their tune. Money talks.
tonyp wrote:I'm lost for polite words.
Using impolite words to describe this situation would do those words a disservice. I thought the Union(s) are supposed to represent their member's interests? Have passengers ever been a legitimate concern of theirs? Perhaps someone with a bit more experience than me on the matter can elaborate.
https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/

The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
I can understand their concerns to a point, but only to a point.

Some stops simply haven't been thought out with regard to how passengers at the rear door(s) will alight. It isn't hard for a driver to take the initiative, use their mirrors and pull further forward to solve this issue - unless they're faced with a bus stop nestled between parked cars or some other obstruction; in which case, there does exist a safety issue depending how well the bus pulls into its stop.

Local councils or Government bodies responsible for bus stops and/or the upgrades of stops to DDA standards need to be held to account, as the upgrades are not always thought out very well. For example, over here in Perth, the upgraded stops are, to say the least, absolutely pathetic. Oh yes, the front door opens, and passengers find the pavement is almost at floor-height of the bus... There's tactile pavement, maybe a bench or shelter and a pathway to the footpath. The back door(s) opens, and passengers usually step straight off into someone's garden, or the 'cutout' in the pavement placed to facilitate access for something like a wheelchair. Make me wonder if the Union isn't trying to save themselves negative publicity if a passenger hurt themselves with a back-door only policy.
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