Use of Back Door on Buses
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Just a question, how can Transport for NSW be so union based if it's a government run organisation and that government in charge went against the unions in regards to the Inner West bus privatisation just a few years ago?Campbelltown busboy wrote:The whole Transport For NSW thought process is union based and if they don't consult with the RTBU about things like all door boarding or other sensible ideas when it comes to public transport in Sydney then there will be a strike because the union wasn't told and the government only cares about what they want and the union won't take itSwift wrote:^ Try convincing Sydney Transport bosses. Like talking to a besser block wall.
I understand that unions have a strong influence or stance in this industry (in Brisbane too from what I'm aware), however, I wouldn't go as far to say that the government is only here to make the RTBU happy. Behind closed doors, I'm sure the government (from both sides to be honest with you) will be fed up with some unions at some point in time.
- Campbelltown busboy
- Posts: 2129
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
- Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
The RTBU would be a calling for a nation wide state of quarantine to protect their members if there's such a thing as a state of quarantinetonyp wrote:An interesting development in Europe, where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors. No fare transactions or other interaction with bus drivers are allowed. It will be interesting to see how quickly the RTBU moves on this. This photo from Zurich:
-
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
- Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
- Location: A Coastal City
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I think there are several reasons such an initiative would fall flat on its face here in Australia:tonyp wrote:... where all-door boarding is already an established norm - in view of the development of the coronavirus, some operations are moving to minimise risk for bus drivers by closing off the front door and allowing entry and egress only by the other doors.
- Rigid buses have only a single door (and maybe only a half-width/single-leaf affair), so you'd be working with one door only in some cases
- Accessibility issues with the back doors where there mightn't be the manoeuvring space for prams/wheelchairs etc, or worse yet, steps to contend with!
- Smart-card payment systems may not work on the back doors by default. In Perth, for example, if you tag on at the back door you'll be slugged a default fare if the ticketing equipment hasn't had its default overridden. This could probably be resolved without much fuss, though. The other issue with ticketing is (potentially) a lack of sufficient validators at the back doors - we only have one per door here in Perth and Darwin buses have only one at the front
- Air-conditioning - Unlike other parts of the world where A/C mightn't be the norm, there are few (if any) fresh-air ventilation options on most service buses here. I don't know how easily the virus can spread via air-conditioning systems, but this would be more of a concern for the driver, spending hours in a potentially-contaminated environment versus passengers only spending a few minutes on the bus.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlighted as such in timetables.
I believe from reading manufacturers literature that European buses tend to have a separate aircon unit for the driver but perhaps it's different here.
I believe from reading manufacturers literature that European buses tend to have a separate aircon unit for the driver but perhaps it's different here.
Last edited by tonyp on Thu Mar 12, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Campbelltown busboy
- Posts: 2129
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
- Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWUtonyp wrote:I was thinking more about the RTBU and the Sydney environment where the buses they drive have at least two double leaf doors anyway, the Opal readers read both ways and, at least on Volgrens and Customs, the aisle width would be I think adequate for a wheelchair to get from the centre door to the wheelchair space (though there's the matter of the ramp of course). Of course all Bustechs would be instantly inaccessible and would either have to be withdrawn from service or highlight gated as such in timetables.
- J_Busworth
- Posts: 682
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am
- Favourite Vehicle: Scania L113TRB Ansair Orana
- Location: On the X74, because it's faster than the tram
- Contact:
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
[quote="Campbelltown busboy"
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU[/quote]
All STA and a good amount of TSA drivers are with the RTBU. Historically, most of the buses with back doors have been buses operated by RTBU members.
I think most of Sydney's unionised bus drivers are members of the TWU[/quote]
All STA and a good amount of TSA drivers are with the RTBU. Historically, most of the buses with back doors have been buses operated by RTBU members.
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
RIP STA L113s 28/01/93 - 12/01/22
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Some other photos plucked from a Facebook group.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
- Campbelltown busboy
- Posts: 2129
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:23 pm
- Location: Ruse/Campbelltown City NSW
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door busestonyp wrote:See my comments on the Private Observations thread. They do have the advantage in Europe of the ramp typically being at the second door and cashless (smartcard) fares and all-door entry being an almost universal norm, so they are able to continue normal accessible operations while isolating the driver at the same time. The way it should be here. This pandemic has the side-effect of showing up how out-of-date our operational methods are.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Nobody here is demanding doors behind the rear axle, so manufacturers are not bothering to convert low-floor LHD to RHD for this feature. Only Daimler Benz is floating this on the Australian market but there have been no takers so far and no prototype bus. You can have all-door boarding with any number of doors from two upwards.Campbelltown busboy wrote:Is there a actual market for right hand hand drive buses with 3 doors for rigid buses and 5 doors for arctic buses like the European based left hand drive 3 or 5 door buses that you keep praising or can they do multiple door boarding with two door buses
- Swift
- Posts: 13273
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
- Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
- Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
In the late 70s and early 80s with the Bedfordsauruses private operators dished out, they offered egress. The paranoid doofuses can't even offer that now in this complete backwater operating environment they IMPOSE on us.
The drivers are well and truly programmed as we witnessed during the pink link.
The drivers are well and truly programmed as we witnessed during the pink link.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
A good demonstration at the end of the video in this article of one reason why stairs in bus aisles are a bad thing:
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... NutAgGmsJU
https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... NutAgGmsJU
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
An interesting University of Sydney study of all-door boarding:
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/del ... 97F4F0674D
If you have trouble opening it, it was linked from here:
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ ... 1/art00006#
Figure 1 shows the boarding time reduction per number of doors. Although the hypothetical conclusion may be that for lower passenger volumes, one door may be more effective overall, the issue is that you can't confuse the customers. You either do it for all or don't do it at all.
http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/del ... 97F4F0674D
If you have trouble opening it, it was linked from here:
https://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ ... 1/art00006#
Figure 1 shows the boarding time reduction per number of doors. Although the hypothetical conclusion may be that for lower passenger volumes, one door may be more effective overall, the issue is that you can't confuse the customers. You either do it for all or don't do it at all.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Transport Canberra pointing the way to the future?
The only problem is that it's sabotaged for people with "invisible" mobility impairments by their Bustechs and Combo artics with stepped entries!
The only problem is that it's sabotaged for people with "invisible" mobility impairments by their Bustechs and Combo artics with stepped entries!
- boronia
- Posts: 21577
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
- Favourite Vehicle: Ahrens Fox; GMC PD4107
- Location: Sydney NSW
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
@ The Museum of Fire.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.
(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk
(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.
(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
- Swift
- Posts: 13273
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
- Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
- Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
Stubborn RTBU.boronia wrote:There is a video circulating on a few TfNSW Facebook pages (inc Sydney Trains) on the changes being made to STA buses, with the extra cleaning and "safe area" around the drivers.
This might be a good avenue to publicly ask why rear door loading is not being encouraged, when other countries are enforcing it.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
The RTBU never had a problem with it in Brisbane and still doesn't apparently, so I'm sure they don't have double standards for NSW. Someone elsewhere now tells me the OTSI is the culprit in NSW and there's legislation about it, but I've never seen any regulation, let alone legislation in NSW banning all-door boarding, otherwise a certain operator wouldn't be practising it.Swift wrote: Stubborn RTBU.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.tonyp wrote:It seems to have been introduced in Melbourne now as well as Canberra and Brisbane.rogf24 wrote:I was on a bus in Melbourne today where the driver only opened the centre/rear door and kept the front door sealed. I guess much like all door boarding, these things seem to happen unofficially in Melbourne.
(I haven't caught the bus or any PT or driven anyway in days and needed to get something done.)
Sent from my moto g(7) plus using Tapatalk
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I'm getting that more from a press release I saw.rogf24 wrote:I can't say they've "introduced" it but this was for just one trip.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
I don't want to overload the Covid 19 thread with this sort of thing and it's very relevant here. A sudden declaration from TWU NSW:
Funnily enough, both TWU and RTBU members use this "incredibly dangerous" practice in several other states and territories, in some cases for some years, but only in NSW it's somehow a deadly issue. I'm lost for polite words.
Look at the item just posted in the Covid 19 thread from their counterpart, the TWU in USA, for the polar opposite attitude.
We need more tram projects in Sydney, fast.
Sounds like they've been beaten into submission by TfNSW and RTBU. The prioritisation of this principle over the health of their members in the present environment is pretty sick, to put it mildly.https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/
The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
Funnily enough, both TWU and RTBU members use this "incredibly dangerous" practice in several other states and territories, in some cases for some years, but only in NSW it's somehow a deadly issue. I'm lost for polite words.
Look at the item just posted in the Covid 19 thread from their counterpart, the TWU in USA, for the polar opposite attitude.
We need more tram projects in Sydney, fast.
- Swift
- Posts: 13273
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
- Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
- Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
What will it take fit them to pull their heads out of their ###ses?tonyp wrote:I don't want to overload the Covid 19 thread with this sort of thing and it's very relevant here. A sudden declaration from TWU NSW:
Sounds like they've been beaten into submission by TfNSW and RTBU. The prioritisation of this principle over the health of their members in the present environment is pretty sick, to put it mildly.https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/
The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
Funnily enough, both TWU and RTBU members use this "incredibly dangerous" practice in several other states and territories, in some cases for some years, but only in NSW it's somehow a deadly issue. I'm lost for polite words.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
-
- Posts: 2271
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
- Favourite Vehicle: MAN 18.310, MB O405NH, L94
- Location: A Coastal City
Re: Use of Back Door on Buses
If members have the choice of leaving the Union, they could (and should!) threaten to withdrawn their financial support in writing. If enough members did so, they'd sit up, pay attention and change their tune. Money talks.Swift wrote:What will it take fit them to pull their heads out of their ###ses?
Using impolite words to describe this situation would do those words a disservice. I thought the Union(s) are supposed to represent their member's interests? Have passengers ever been a legitimate concern of theirs? Perhaps someone with a bit more experience than me on the matter can elaborate.tonyp wrote:I'm lost for polite words.
I can understand their concerns to a point, but only to a point.https://twunsw.org.au/press/bus-drivers ... y-at-work/
The TWU and our members see that rear door loading, on buses fitted with front and rear doors is an incredibly dangerous option for the safety of passengers. The loading of buses by the rear door should only occur in specific sites and with full supervision at the entry point by a Marshall or guide provided by Transport for NSW
Some stops simply haven't been thought out with regard to how passengers at the rear door(s) will alight. It isn't hard for a driver to take the initiative, use their mirrors and pull further forward to solve this issue - unless they're faced with a bus stop nestled between parked cars or some other obstruction; in which case, there does exist a safety issue depending how well the bus pulls into its stop.
Local councils or Government bodies responsible for bus stops and/or the upgrades of stops to DDA standards need to be held to account, as the upgrades are not always thought out very well. For example, over here in Perth, the upgraded stops are, to say the least, absolutely pathetic. Oh yes, the front door opens, and passengers find the pavement is almost at floor-height of the bus... There's tactile pavement, maybe a bench or shelter and a pathway to the footpath. The back door(s) opens, and passengers usually step straight off into someone's garden, or the 'cutout' in the pavement placed to facilitate access for something like a wheelchair. Make me wonder if the Union isn't trying to save themselves negative publicity if a passenger hurt themselves with a back-door only policy.