CBD & South East Light Rail

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Passenger 57
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

Swift wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:01 pm It would be really great if they would reintroduce stickers instructing passengers to use the centre doors to alight
When was that a thing? It probably only contiributes to reduced dwell when buses are lightly loaded, i.e. when it matters least; when they are packed it would have a negative effect. All door boarding seems a greater win and that's going to mean contention again. Eliminating the need to tap-off would be a win for improved dwell. Given the large hike in the 0-3km peak fare earlier this year there's not a very big difference between the minimum and maximum bus fares, so bus fares could probably be flattened toapproximately the the 3-8km range to allow tap-off to be optional
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Passenger flow, as it is called (in one door, out another), was a thing around the world in various countries - even Europe - for many decades but never really took off in Australia which was always more an all-door-loading country in the cities. Front door loading is an aberration of recent decades (though some may point to older examples in interstate cities), but it is showing signs of starting to wane with modern electronic fare systems eliminating the need to interact with a driver. In Europe they've studied passenger exchange efficiencies to death (also in Australia in the past, if you read the 1930s papers presented by the NSW chief tram designer FN Maclean) and they've universally come down in favour of all-door loading as the quickest and most efficient method. Having tag-off on exiting doesn't help, but the width of doors is also an issue as single doors vs double doors of various widths can affect dwell time depending on whether flow is single file, zipper, or two abreast.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

The tram I was on today was using the original, pre-COVID door operation of only opening when passengers press buttons and automatically closing a second after no movement through the door. Not sure if it has to do with a 40 degree day, but in regards to retaining air conditioning for passenger comfort I sure welcome it and hope it’s not a once-off
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

A couple of times lately I have noticed the driver open and close all the doors, then leave them on manual until the tram is ready to move off.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Wasting air conditioning for the sake of politics.
Grrrrrr
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

boronia wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:15 pm A couple of times lately I have noticed the driver open and close all the doors, then leave them on manual until the tram is ready to move off.
I noticed that too.

Today regarding doors, it appears to be drivers discretion, travelled twice today, one trip the driver has done the automatic doors we’ve gotten used to, the other trip that driver left the doors completely in manual mode.

On this 38 degree day, the tram with automatic doors felt like it had no air-conditioning at all, it was unpleasantly hot inside, made worse with the hot wind constantly blowing inside for longer periods at stops, while the tram with manual doors was like a fridge. Can’t forget the Citadis has more doors than the CAF’s do.

In my view they really need to bring back manual door operation permanently after Covid is fully over. I think it was easily one of the best things about this project and it kind of feels like Alstom designed the Citadis to primarily be used in manual mode, seeing videos of other Citadis around the world (before COVID). I mean, was it ever explained why when our Citadis started, they went with manual doors from the get-go, but the when the current CAF’s on the L1 started, it was always automatic? Food for thought
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

Without being racist, a large portion of users on L2/L3 are Asian and are used to pushing the buttons, and probably everybody else just fell in line. Even now in manual mode, a lot of people still push the button out of force of habit. Which ever system is chosen, it needs to be consistent across the fleet. This is why the idea failed when they tried it on a few trains.

One of the Australian rail systems with manual doors even lets you "preselect" the door opening before the train stops.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Alstom is a European manufacturer and the predominant tram market is Europe and in Europe the passenger typically opens the door, so it's a standard feature. If you see the doors are all being opened by the driver, this is a choice made by the local operator.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by rogf24 »

boronia wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:12 pm Without being racist, a large portion of users on L2/L3 are Asian and are used to pushing the buttons, and probably everybody else just fell in line. Even now in manual mode, a lot of people still push the button out of force of habit. Which ever system is chosen, it needs to be consistent across the fleet. This is why the idea failed when they tried it on a few trains.

One of the Australian rail systems with manual doors even lets you "preselect" the door opening before the train stops.
Most of the Asians would be Chinese no? I don't think there are many buttons to open doors in Chinese metro trains. Same with Japanese and Korean trains too. I think the flashing button has a lot to do with it, makes it obvious than it just lighting up.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by pgt »

boronia wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:12 pm Without being racist, a large portion of users on L2/L3 are Asian and are used to pushing the buttons, and probably everybody else just fell in line. Even now in manual mode, a lot of people still push the button out of force of habit. Which ever system is chosen, it needs to be consistent across the fleet. This is why the idea failed when they tried it on a few trains.

One of the Australian rail systems with manual doors even lets you "preselect" the door opening before the train stops.
I definitely do it out of habit, especially as I was only in Canberra last week where their trams do require one to press the button - though theirs for some reason closes the door on people getting on (as if the presence sensor above the door wasn't activated - this was at the terminus!).
Probably doesn't help that on the Sydney L2/L3 trams the light comes on about a second or so before the doors even start to open in automatic mode.

As for the rail system allowing you to press beforehand to open the door, I think that's the newer QR suburban trains in SE Queensland (at least from what I remember).
rogf24 wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:53 pm Most of the Asians would be Chinese no? I don't think there are many buttons to open doors in Chinese metro trains. Same with Japanese and Korean trains too. I think the flashing button has a lot to do with it, makes it obvious than it just lighting up.
I'd agree with the flashing button - since last time I was in Hong Kong and Taipei and even Japan, the metro trains have automated doors (and most have platform screen doors anyway, so nothing to press/touch).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by lunchbox »

What's the purpose of the exterior orange light on the 4 x quarter panels of the Eastern Suburbs trams??
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

lunchbox wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:40 pm What's the purpose of the exterior orange light on the 4 x quarter panels of the Eastern Suburbs trams??
Are they part of a set of side marker lights along the sides of the tram so that they don't get T boned at night?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

They are only on the ends, presumably some form of width markers.

They also double as turn signal lights, there is a <left--right> switch on the control panel. These could also work as hazard lights?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Glen »

Both lines have been fully closed this week for trackwork from 19:30.

I watched the tail off of service last night and there was a lot of strange empty running, like multiple sets departing the city empty after the buses had begun and even empty sets arriving Central from the east to shunt.

I couldn't work out why some of them could not have been carrying passengers.

Announcements at Chalmers St told people to catch alternative buses with no detail. There were two staff there assisting.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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^^^^^^^^.......and the Central Concourse information desk closes at 6pm daily, with no notice directing one to alternative information sources.
If you want transport info in this "global" city, you need to be clever at drilling down into the internet on your phone. No thank you.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

You mean pretend global city, much like margerine comes from a pretend cow -for those non millennial who can remember the Peter Russell Clarke butter campaign when Sydney was still Australian.
Now it's just an anonymous urban environment with nice beaches (natural not made) and pretty harbour you get bored with in five minutes.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

boronia wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 6:06 pm They are only on the ends, presumably some form of width markers.

They also double as turn signal lights, there is a <left--right> switch on the control panel. These could also work as hazard lights?
I’ve always been curious why the L1’s Urbos 3 (and the Variotram predecessor) have the Melbourne-style orange hazard lights, they certainly do flash these on the street section between Paddys Markets and Central, but then the L2 and L3 which is 100% tramway on the streets, they don’t have/use hazard lights?
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Typical NSW inconsistency.
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So sick of transit hobbyist's superior attitudes.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

I don't know why they bother with the hazard lights. If people can't see or hear a tram coming, they are hardly going to notice a couple of piddly little lights.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by CityRail »

Glen wrote:Both lines have been fully closed this week for trackwork from 19:30.

I watched the tail off of service last night and there was a lot of strange empty running, like multiple sets departing the city empty after the buses had begun and even empty sets arriving Central from the east to shunt.

I couldn't work out why some of them could not have been carrying passengers.

Announcements at Chalmers St told people to catch alternative buses with no detail. There were two staff there assisting.
And there were no staff at Chinatown station at 8.30pm, indicators is blank and some passengers were left waiting.

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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Yet more confirmation what a white elephant it will always be.
https://amp.9news.com.au/article/a5f72d ... 92f00c8db6
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Well I mean one year on, the journey time between Randwick and Central is substantially improved. That's commendable. However, that's not the only thing I'm judging this project on. There's a few of areas of concern for me, I'll note these out below:

1) Door opening. The current automatic operation makes sense for Covid, thats completely fine I support for safety, but POST-COVID however far away that is, I really want to see manual door operation come back. Unless assuming automatic doors is actually really only a temporary Coronavirus measure currently, then ignore. In my view it was one of the best things about this project when it launched and we got to see the benefit of it not seen in any other mode of transport in Sydney. Cold air-conditioning preserved, if no one boards/alights at a stop then you don't need to listen to doors opening/beeping/closing. Unfortunately, while I don't have a crystal ball, I do note the system has already existed for far longer now with automatic doors rather than manual doors, as well as remembering on other social media channels in the opening days, a few Pax actually complained about the inconvenience of having to press the button, which doesn't give me too much hope. On the other hand, they did bring back manual doors for that one weekend of extreme heat a couple of weeks back, so thats something and as such I wouldn't write it off completely, but if it never comes back, its a step backwards in my view.

2) Out of the hands of the Light Rail operator, but the further pedestrianisation of George St between Town Hall and Chinatown has appeared to definitively lowered the speed limit on this section. I don't have the figures, but it's always a substantial crawl now between these two stops, previously, there was the potential for speed to be picked up. Only section of the CBD where the trams would get some speed. I understand the lower speed limit as always safety first, but still, for the section of the line thats been the slowest (Central-CQ), its not like it needed to be any slower, and last time I read, this pedestrianisation is actually permanent too, so that likely also for the speed limit too.

3) Stop dwell time. It could still be shorter and at times, stop dwell times is still uncomfortably long. Obviously, dwell time is much better than the opening days when it was questionably long, but I still just wonder why can the L1 Dulwich Hill Line, which is even further from a conventional tramway, is able to stop, open doors doors and close them just a few seconds later if its quiet enough, as thats never the case with the L2/3 (unless late), its always longer than that.

But otherwise, time for the positive stuff, it's great. Definitely a far bigger improvement over the old days of buses moving nowhere in George Street - I mean does anyone miss that? I think the section of the route in Surry Hills is very Melbourne-esque which is lovely. As mentioned earlier, the travel time between Central and Randwick (And JK) I feel has improved to actually be viable now. And otherwise, a year later, I still feel Alstom's modern day Citadis is a substantially better product than the 7 year old CAF Urbos running on the other line. I never liked the Urbos from the moment it entered service here, but thats quite in contrast to the Citadis. Much better window view, much softer lighting at night, better air conditioning, better seating arrangement. To think that they even wanted to go with CAF Urbos for the L2/L3 originally - I am so glad they changed their mind and went with the Citadis instead. I understand Melbourne has finally moved on from the E/E2 Class and is now looking for its NGT, Next Generation Tram to roll in sometime this decade - well, I'd personally love to see an incarnation of Sydney's Citadis in Melbourne, if Alstom gets shortlisted, I’ll be keenly watching! While they already have Citadis, these are the old generation ones (C2 and C Class are 15-20 years old now)
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by covo95 »

Travel times have now improved substantially as well. travel times between CQ and Randwick/Kingsford are between 31 and 33 mins in both directions
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