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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:17 pm
by hornetfig
moa999 wrote:On the whole fairly impressed today. Most impressive thing was the listing of connections on the PIDs, voice announcements and internal maps.
Well you had the opposite experience to me. Got on at Centennial Park - no air conditioning - 30 degrees and humid, waited 5 minutes, got a thickly-accented driver announcement that the "LRV" would soon depart and stankydoorco, then Taylor Owynns said the same (mind you, the doors were all long closed), then we proceeded to the next stop, got every red light. I switched to the other tram in the set which did have working AC. But same dwell problem, same announcement duplication.

Next stop I alighted. The experience was uncomfortable and boring. I've walked the route many times through construction. The service was slower than walking.

Only interesting thing was seeing the Sydney Bus Museum single decker collection out doing shuttles!

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:02 pm
by Jurassic_Joke
Can we talk about how nice these Citadis trams are? Knew I’d love them as soon as I saw the resemblance + realised that it’s really just an updated version of the C2 ‘bumblebee’ Citadis’ in Melbourne.

They feel like an actual city tram. Especially with how it’s the passengers that open the doors themselves by pressing the button, and then the doors close by themselves automatically to conserve aircon. The engine sound is sweet. The visual displays are great. The aircon is great. They feel much more spacious to walk around in.

Remembering the actual artist impressions when at the time they still wanted CAF Urbos running this thing..., I’m so glad we didn’t go with that.

The Citadis trams are a real treat :)

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:09 pm
by Swift
hornetfig wrote:
moa999 wrote:On the whole fairly impressed today. Most impressive thing was the listing of connections on the PIDs, voice announcements and internal maps.
Well you had the opposite experience to me. Got on at Centennial Park - no air conditioning - 30 degrees and humid, waited 5 minutes, got a thickly-accented driver announcement that the "LRV" would soon depart and stankydoorco, then Taylor Owynns said the same (mind you, the doors were all long closed), then we proceeded to the next stop, got every red light. I switched to the other tram in the set which did have working AC. But same dwell problem, same announcement duplication.

Next stop I alighted. The experience was uncomfortable and boring. I've walked the route many times through construction. The service was slower than walking.

Only interesting thing was seeing the Sydney Bus Museum single decker collection out doing shuttles!
I think people around here get too easily impressed simply because it's a newly introduced transport system and it's in Sydney, regardless how mediocre an disappointing it truly is. It looks like Sydney Trains experience transferred with politically correct affirmative action BS employing ill suited immigrant employees who's accents hinder clear effective communication for the public using the services. Someone had to say it.

Be prepared for lots more this as well as with motor vehicles. It will soon enough become evident that bullbars and cow catchers will need to be added.

https://youtu.be/jVyZSrYLBYI?t=01m25s

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:37 pm
by mubd
That kid who got hit by the tram was an idiotic teenager with too much testosterone, who appeared to be trying to jump over the coupling section linking up the tram going the other way in order to impress his friends. Unfortunately for him, he got creamed by the tram going the other way, which he didn't see because he was too focused on jumping over the coupling. Who knows, he may well have been killed if he hadn't been hit by the tram!


Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:48 pm
by boronia
Problems today:
1. Tram with stuck brakes on crossovers at CQ; services truncated to Town Hall
2. Passenger fainted on tram at Haymarket: delays
3. Problems with signals in CBD; services truncated to Chalmers St.
4. Randwick terminus overwhelmed with trams. I got there just after 3 pm. Both platforms occupied and two more trams in High St waiting to access.

I caught tram about 3.30 from Randwick going only to Central. By the time we got to Chalmers St, 25 minutes later, the problem had been fixed and we suddenly became a CQ service and continued on. 51 minutes end to end.

Progress was reasonable despite poor signal co-ordination. Several times we had lengthy stops at pedestrian crossings where there were no pedestrians in sight. It was also disappointing to be waiting for a T signal while there was a tram passing in the opposite direction.

Set 13 had a noticeable wheel flat in the outer end module.

Supplementary info on the PIDs was disappointing. One announcement showed LRVs were terminating at CENTRALL (sic). Another stated "traffic will resume bet". "1 tram out of 2 is sent to Central and to Town Hall". Seems to be the same guy who does the L1 platform PIDs.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:29 pm
by Swift
^ this farce would be considered cow manure in Japan but normal teething troubles in Old South Wales.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:20 pm
by neilrex
I am not amused by the continuing claims that these are the first trams for 60 years. Even John Cowper, who should know better.

I know the death of Princess Diana was a major distraction, but still....

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:27 pm
by mubd
The 7pm ABC News bulletin had a report on the light rail opening which said the budget for the project had blown out to "3 *million* dollars". Gee they'd be pretty pleased if it had come to that figure...

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:38 pm
by boronia
The ABC is probably still gloating over being the first media to report the breakdown this morning.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:53 pm
by mubd
The ABC seemed to be the only identifiable media presence at the light rail opening this morning. I think the media organisations must have pooled the footage.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:07 pm
by stupid_girl
https://www.9news.com.au/national/sydne ... 0ad30dcfeb
According to the news, extra buses will be running from Randwick into the city.

Does Transport NSW want commuters to compare the travelling time on tram vs bus? :twisted:

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:09 pm
by aussiedrum
I have been making a few YouTube videos of the light rail tram testing some of you may find interesting, my latest upload is Part 9 recorded on the Saturday 14th of December. Opening day and tram ride with cab view from Circular quay and continuing down George St and finishing up at central. I also have parts 1-8 of the tram testing taken over the last few months on my youtube channel some of you may enjoy.

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERMbzHs-zCs

Cheers Aussiedrum

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:45 pm
by tonyp
boronia wrote: 4. Randwick terminus overwhelmed with trams. I got there just after 3 pm. Both platforms occupied and two more trams in High St waiting to access.
The advantage of looped systems! Since we had to go for stubs, it was ensured that the design was ample for the capacity required (2 min headways on the core, 4 mins on the branches), so it was triple track at CQ and double at the outer termini. Now this works fine if the trams are running as scheduled, even tolerating a little bit of out-of-time, but of course when things go really pear-shaped, you get the famous stubbed sytem pile-ups that affect even the best-run systems (like Budapest). The traditional systems like Melbourne will generally open the doors to let passengers escape rather than be trapped waiting, but the newer OH&S-driven systems will drive people nuts by trapping them on board until it pulls into the platform. We'll find out what sort of system the Sydney one turns out to be.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:20 pm
by moa999
Suspect a few posters here will appreciate the parody @sydneylightfail Twitter account

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:32 pm
by rogf24
tonyp wrote:but the newer OH&S-driven systems will drive people nuts by trapping them on board until it pulls into the platform. We'll find out what sort of system the Sydney one turns out to be.
That would be a good excuse to use the emergency door release.
Speaking of which, 7 News footage shows passengers getting off at a location with no platform today following the breakdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPop2K0bagE.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:18 am
by matthewg
boronia wrote:Service alerts showing "medical emergency at Haymarket".

First victim?
Onboard - someone collapsed on the tram just after we turned into Eddy Ave. Someone used the passenger alarm. The tram continued to Haymarket where additional staff boarded and tried to assist. Shortly a motorcycle paramedic turned up, followed by an ambulance. The patent was removed still unconscious by the ambulance paramedics. The tram continued on empty. (This is apparently procedure, I guess on the assumption cleaners will be needed).

The passengers that hung around tried to squeeze onto the next tram through. Its airconditioning in the leading car was running, but the flow rate was way too low. (Cool air coming out of the duct, but not enough flow to cool the saloon)

I was at the Quay when 6 + 7 decided to sit down while still foul of the Circular Quay crossover. Passengers were 'detrammed' onto the street, along with those on inbound tram set now trapped at the signal on George Street.
Alstom bought in the big guns (the Unimog) and that must have scared the trams as just as Alstom were getting organised, the set moved off under its own power.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:30 pm
by boronia
tonyp wrote:
boronia wrote: 4. Randwick terminus overwhelmed with trams. I got there just after 3 pm. Both platforms occupied and two more trams in High St waiting to access.
The advantage of looped systems! Since we had to go for stubs, it was ensured that the design was ample for the capacity required (2 min headways on the core, 4 mins on the branches), so it was triple track at CQ and double at the outer termini. Now this works fine if the trams are running as scheduled, even tolerating a little bit of out-of-time, but of course when things go really pear-shaped, you get the famous stubbed sytem pile-ups that affect even the best-run systems (like Budapest). The traditional systems like Melbourne will generally open the doors to let passengers escape rather than be trapped waiting, but the newer OH&S-driven systems will drive people nuts by trapping them on board until it pulls into the platform. We'll find out what sort of system the Sydney one turns out to be.
Looped systems are good if the trams using them can quickly stop, drop, pick up and move on. They also require discipline elsewhere in the network to ensure the services arrive and depart in the correct sequence.

Once you have trams laying up for extended periods, as happened in the old system, any late running services can still be blocked from regaining their schedules. It must have been a nightmare for the starters in Young St trying to sort out 6 or more routes over just two tracks. Fort Macquarie with its four track loop, turn back crossovers and signalbox might have had some hope.

The problems at Randwick yesterday would not have been helped by a loop, even two tracked, if the operators were going to keep trams at the platforms to wait on their "official" departure times. Even with the stubs, no attempt was made to clear platforms for incoming services. When I arrived there were 3 trams in High St waiting on a "berth". The closure from Central would have saturated the eastern segment with trams; I did notice a couple of trams returning to the DEPOT, so perhaps they were trying to thin out the numbers.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:09 pm
by tonyp
boronia wrote: Looped systems are good if the trams using them can quickly stop, drop, pick up and move on. They also require discipline elsewhere in the network to ensure the services arrive and depart in the correct sequence.

Once you have trams laying up for extended periods, as happened in the old system, any late running services can still be blocked from regaining their schedules. It must have been a nightmare for the starters in Young St trying to sort out 6 or more routes over just two tracks. Fort Macquarie with its four track loop, turn back crossovers and signalbox might have had some hope.

The problems at Randwick yesterday would not have been helped by a loop, even two tracked, if the operators were going to keep trams at the platforms to wait on their "official" departure times. Even with the stubs, no attempt was made to clear platforms for incoming services. When I arrived there were 3 trams in High St waiting on a "berth". The closure from Central would have saturated the eastern segment with trams; I did notice a couple of trams returning to the DEPOT, so perhaps they were trying to thin out the numbers.
No they don't have to quickly move on, that's exactly what happens in a stub. In a loop the following tram can pull in behind and retain the running order. If the loop is multi-tracked, like Fort Macquarie, any out-of-order sorting can be done in the loop, it doesn't have to be done out on the line. Here is a classic loop working, designed for dispatching a tram about every 30 seconds, as would have been performed at the busier termini in Sydney:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf1bVWzp0kM&t

(Loops also run around street blocks, before somebody says that there's no land available - which there is in fact at most of the old Sydney loop termini.)

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:20 pm
by Newcastle Flyer
According to Channel 7 News, one of the trams went through a red lights and the brakes were applied hard. Do they have a system that puts the brakes on automatically, or the driver just realised and "slammed" them on him/herself?

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:18 pm
by simonl
boronia wrote:I caught tram about 3.30 from Randwick going only to Central. By the time we got to Chalmers St, 25 minutes later, the problem had been fixed and we suddenly became a CQ service and continued on. 51 minutes end to end.
Didn't the 373/377 buses used to make that trip in just over 20 minutes? I think it was less sometimes.

Is this going to be a political problem? I suppose we'll find out.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:49 pm
by simonl
gld59 wrote:Are there any other jurisdictions (anywhere) which have both bus lanes and bus only lanes? (Even a jurisdiction which uses more than a single word to distinguish them?) Does the one at Parramatta, going north from the underpass east of the Westfield interchange, still swap back and forth between them? What's worse, some (mainly around North Sydney) are marked as one type on the signs and the other type on the road surface. :roll:
In Brisbane, they have signs 100m before every intersection which say something like "enter transit lane to turn into <street name>". Something which could be adopted here.

I don't understand the purpose of disallowing left turners from using the bus only lanes, except in special cases like the one at Hassall St/Station St Parramatta where buses need to turn right from the left lane. All it does is slow down the traffic, buses and cars, because it requires an extra phase in the traffic signals.

The "bus only lane" doesn't exist in any other state in Australia AIUI. I agree that it is far from optimal but imagine the complaining if they wanted to get rid of taxis, motorbikes and bicycles from all the bus lanes! Especially the taxis.

Yes the bus lane heading north from Parra interchange still becomes bus only before Macquarie st, making me a little irked also. Why is this needed? All that is needed is left turn only, buses excepted as applies heading north on Church St at Grose St.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:56 pm
by hornetfig
boronia wrote:4. Randwick terminus overwhelmed with trams. I got there just after 3 pm. Both platforms occupied and two more trams in High St waiting to access. [/qupte]

I think this is a consequence of the timetable padding. Everything just sits around. There's often queuing of trams at Centennial Park for similar reasons.
Set 13 had a noticeable wheel flat in the outer end module.
I didn't mention it in my mini-rant, but set 23 (the one that I rode that did have working aircon...) also had a wheel flat. Kerchunk-kerchunk all the way up Wansey Rd, I can imagine the residents would be thrilled.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:33 pm
by mubd
Newcastle Flyer wrote:According to Channel 7 News, one of the trams went through a red lights and the brakes were applied hard. Do they have a system that puts the brakes on automatically, or the driver just realised and "slammed" them on him/herself?
If there was a system, it doesn't look like it works very well...


Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:46 pm
by STMPainter2018
hornetfig wrote: Well you had the opposite experience to me. Got on at Centennial Park - no air conditioning - 30 degrees and humid, waited 5 minutes, got a thickly-accented driver announcement that the "LRV" would soon depart and stankydoorco, then Taylor Owynns said the same (mind you, the doors were all long closed), then we proceeded to the next stop, got every red light. I switched to the other tram in the set which did have working AC. But same dwell problem, same announcement duplication.

Next stop I alighted. The experience was uncomfortable and boring. I've walked the route many times through construction. The service was slower than walking.

Only interesting thing was seeing the Sydney Bus Museum single decker collection out doing shuttles!
Jesus everyone's a critic aren't they. I'd imagine most of yesterdays teething issues will be solved by the next week or so. This is the first time they've taken passengers; I had an inkling it wouldn't be smooth sailing. By this time next year I'm sure this will be a reliable and faster system that justify's it's existence over buses.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:47 pm
by boronia
I heard a couple of clunkers in the city today. Perhaps this is a novel pedestrian alerting system?