CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
STMPainter2018
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

boronia wrote: All they need are some type/class letters for each model, to emulate past practice.

A type: Vario's
B type: Urbos 3
C type: Urbos 10
D type: X05
E type: Newcastle Urbos 10
F type: Parramatta
There's no such thing as an Urbos 10; it's Urbos 100. Which is what they renamed the Urbos 3's so they're exactly the same thing. There's no need to class them differently then. They're probably not gonna class the new vehicles anyway; there aren't a lot of letters left to go around considering most were used by the old Sydney system. Only free letters left are I, Q, X, Y and Z (and maybe T but that was used to classify electric trailer cars).
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

It's like classing refrigerators. Why bother? This modern s&$! has non of the charm and soul of the old school.
These latest ones for the CSELR do look nice -for what they are.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by marcnut1996 »

STMPainter2018 wrote:
marcnut1996 wrote:For those curious
It'd be wise for you to edit your comment and repost this attachment with the names of the FB commenters scribbled/censored out. It's a real violation of privacy. Especially because the one named "Michael", is ME! And I do not appreciate my name being shared on anonymous public forums like this without my consent thank you!
Done and fixed. My apologies. You can delete/edit your comment now to hide your name.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

It can be argued that Facebook is very much in the public domain, at least as far as the great number of people who are signed up to it are concerned.

I was actually going to query why I can't find that particular conversation about the tram numbers on the Sydney Light Rail page. It doesn't show up for me. The only way that the tram numbering would be Alstom's concern would be if they owned the trams and perhaps that is indeed the case? Which would mean that when the consortium's contract ends and if it's not renewed, the tram fleet is taken away back to France or wherever.

At least it's good to see that Alstom is honouring the continuity of the Sydney electric fleet numbering sequence which began at nos. 1, 2 and 3 in 1890 with the three experimental electric cars. The only thing is that the numbers were sequential up to the last R1 (2087), then the Sydney Light Rail Co. introduced a break by starting the Variotrams at 2100-2107, then came Urbos 2 at 2008-2111, then Urbos 3 at 2112, 2114 to 2124. So the Citadis introduce another break by starting at 2200. The Newcastle and Parramatta trams should also be in the same sequence as there was never any differentiation made on the grounds of location of cars.
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Linto63
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

They will be leased like just about everything in this state, most likely by the government rather than the consortium, much like is the case with buses. Alstom only has a BAA credit rating while the NSW government is rated AAA, so it can obtain a better rate.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

marcnut1996 wrote:Done and fixed. My apologies. You can delete/edit your comment now to hide your name.
Thank you I really appreciate that.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Newcastle is 215x I believe, although only have 5x on the front.
matthewg
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

tonyp wrote:It can be argued that Facebook is very much in the public domain, at least as far as the great number of people who are signed up to it are concerned.
It was a public post on FB. Hiding the names on a repost here is 'closing the gate after the horse has bolted'. Names are already in the public domain.
tonyp wrote: I was actually going to query why I can't find that particular conversation about the tram numbers on the Sydney Light Rail page. It doesn't show up for me. The only way that the tram numbering would be Alstom's concern would be if they owned the trams and perhaps that is indeed the case? Which would mean that when the consortium's contract ends and if it's not renewed, the tram fleet is taken away back to France or wherever.
Even then the car numbers are not Alstom's to pick. Do car manufacturers get to pick the licence plate numbers stuck on the car they sell ?. No. The dealer gets the plates in bulk from the RMS or the new owner transfers the plate of their old car if they have a custom one. Do the bus manufactures get to pick fleet numbers for their products?

The fleet numbers would be someone in TfNSW responsibility. Probably the only requirement is that they do not overlap with another tram asset as the 'road number' is probably the primary key in the asset database.

However given that TfNSW has let Alstom pick the loading gauge, wheel profile, power supply type, train radio system, train control system..... (Thus making the new trams incompatible with the existing line) they probably have outsourced the road number issue as well.
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

The press conference on the first daytime running through the CBD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DP6-CJwn4Y

The SMH isn't useful for much of a positive nature nowadays but the inherited Fairfax photo library is a gem:

https://www.smh.com.au/national/return- ... 1hidx.html

TfNSW video of the event. Note pantographs down at Town Hall.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2361399240580767
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STMPainter2018
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote: The SMH isn't useful for much of a positive nature nowadays
I have no idea what you're talking about. I've seen just as many positive articles about the light rail from SMH as negative. Same with The Telegraph (though as long as they have Miranda (I'm not) Devine on their staff, they're always gonna lean more to the negative side imo). Seems like your biases are showing again Tony...
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

Don't we all bring biases to the table though?
Even journalists can't avoid it, so why should we?

My dad who's 77 and is no transport nut, loved Sydney's trams and was fascinated by them.
When he saw these new "trams" on the news last night on their trip to the Quay, he thought it looked like a train.
Adds validation to my past comments that a street train us a more apt description. It even looks like a Tangara.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Or shock horror... Light rail
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

Light rail is synonymous with trams. Trains are synonymous with an eight carriage Tangara!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by J_Busworth »

Swift wrote:Light rail is synonymous with trams. Trains are synonymous with an eight carriage Tangara!
This bloody thing looks like an eight carriage Tangara! No wonder it has been built with railway engineering
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

There is a whole suite of light/mid/hybrid/rapid rail which i'd describe as anything in the 30-100m vehicle range

In our region you've got the KL LRT lines with their 80m long driverless and metro style trains, as well their Monorail which had 45m sets and was designed for 67m (before Scomi's issues) plus all the long trams (if you want to put it that way)
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tonyp
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

In terms of street tramways, which CSELR is, typically tram/consist lengths nowadays range between 30 and 70 metres. Shorter trams have been generally superseded by articulated buses, trams longer than 70 metres not really a practical fit in city blocks. Street public transport solutions should be seen as a spectrum of vehicles ranging from minibuses to 70 metre trams, offering a graded range of capacities according to needs - with the crossover between articulated buses and 30 metre trams where the capacity requirements move beyond the technical limits of buses (size/weight).

That's all. There's no "buses vs trams" debate, let alone any justification for "one size fits all" thinking (particularly when that size is down near the bottom end of the spectrum). Or knocking out articulated buses and leaving a yawning gap in your range of solutions. Not that I'm thinking of any particular agency.....
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by burrumbus »

Alas no thought given to the different characteristics needed to provide a relevant solution of each individual route/route corridor or geographical area.
Just a continuation of the one size fits all services regime operated in Sydney for decades which has failed dreadfully and which can not provide the right capacity to match pax growth in many areas in Sydney or conversely wastes capacity on low patronage services all over Sydney and indeed NSW.One of the reasons why patronage is essentially stagnant or declining in real terms.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

Swift wrote:My dad who's 77 and is no transport nut, loved Sydney's trams and was fascinated by them.
When he saw these new "trams" on the news last night on their trip to the Quay, he thought it looked like a train.
Adds validation to my past comments that a street train us a more apt description. It even looks like a Tangara.
Are you serious? This looks NOTHING like a train, let alone a Tangara. Just because modern trams are longer and articulated compared to the singular vehicles of old, doesn't mean they are any less a tram than what old-school gunzels are familiar with. In the same way a spade is a spade, a tram is a tram, no matter how you word it. And these new vehicles are TRAMS. To suggest otherwise is pure dismissive snobbery. Like Tony, your biases are showing Swift. And yes, we all have our biases - myself included - but I like to try and actually keep an open mind.
STMPainter2018
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

J_Busworth wrote: This bloody thing looks like an eight carriage Tangara!
Where? There is absolutely no resemblance to a Tangara. This is a tram. A very good looking one too.
Last edited by STMPainter2018 on Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
STMPainter2018
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

matthewg wrote: It was a public post on FB. Hiding the names on a repost here is 'closing the gate after the horse has bolted'. Names are already in the public domain.
I don't disagree necessarily, but personally I like to have my public profile as limited as possible. I don't want my identity to be widely exposed on places where you are allowed a sense of anonymity if you wish. FB I don't really have a choice.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

J_Busworth wrote:
Swift wrote:Light rail is synonymous with trams. Trains are synonymous with an eight carriage Tangara!
This bloody thing looks like an eight carriage Tangara! No wonder it has been built with railway engineering
Actually it really reminds me of the C2 Class ‘Bumblebee’ trams in Melbourne
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote:
Actually it really reminds me of the C2 Class ‘Bumblebee’ trams in Melbourne
That's because it's the same bog standard Alstom tram, just a later model. Same as the ones in Adelaide too.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

STMPainter2018 wrote:
boronia wrote: All they need are some type/class letters for each model, to emulate past practice.

A type: Vario's
B type: Urbos 3
C type: Urbos 10
D type: X05
E type: Newcastle Urbos 10
F type: Parramatta
There's no such thing as an Urbos 10; it's Urbos 100. Which is what they renamed the Urbos 3's so they're exactly the same thing. There's no need to class them differently then. They're probably not gonna class the new vehicles anyway; there aren't a lot of letters left to go around considering most were used by the old Sydney system. Only free letters left are I, Q, X, Y and Z (and maybe T but that was used to classify electric trailer cars).
Melbourne got around the lack of letters by reverting back to A, that's all I did too. Perhaps with the similarities, we could follow Melbourne's lead and use A, B1, B2, C, B3, B4 respectively in lieu of above. Class/Type letters do make it easier to distinguish the type/features of the tram.

As for refrigerators, they do have type codes. Just bought a new one, and the user manual covers several different models. Have to sift through 8 digit codes to find out what features are exclusive to my unit.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

boronia wrote:
There's no such thing as an Urbos 10; it's Urbos 100. Which is what they renamed the Urbos 3's so they're exactly the same thing. There's no need to class them differently then. They're probably not gonna class the new vehicles anyway; there aren't a lot of letters left to go around considering most were used by the old Sydney system. Only free letters left are I, Q, X, Y and Z (and maybe T but that was used to classify electric trailer cars).
All the 100 means in the Urbos 100 is '100% low floor'. There is a 'tram-train' variant they call the Urbos 70 - it has raised floors over the rotating bodies, thus a 70% low floor configuration. The real bogies allow a higher top speed without terminal oscillations occurring.

The Sydney Urbos 3 is just an early model of the Urbos 100. The Newcastle Urbos 100 is the same basic car but with the ACR option fitted. Canberra is the same car but without the ACR option fitted. Paramatta is getting the same car but in 7 sections and the ACR option fitted.

Ignoring the ACR option that covers the roof on the M1 and M2 modules, they are just minor revisions of the same platform. The later builds just have fixes and enhancements over the earlier variants. All the versions of the car have a circuit breaker in the cab labled 'ACR' even if it's not fitted. Presumably, all cars have the control support wiring for it, the module is just not fitted.

The Urbos 3 was designed specifically to have wire-free operation in Sevilla, CAF took back the originally supplied Urbos 2 and replaced them with newly designed ACR fitted Urbos 3.




I rather doubt TfNSW will bother assigning letter codes to them. They don't for buses, they just call them whatever the manufacturer calls them.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by BeauGiles »

marcnut1996 wrote:
STMPainter2018 wrote:STOP THE PRESS! Confirmation from Sydney Light Rail's Facebook page today about the numbering for the new Citadis trams. The tram numbers will be between 2201-2260. You called it Matthew lol.
For those curious:

This screenshot shows up blurry for me, here's the original comment on the public Facebook page - https://www.facebook.com/SydneyLightRai ... 1047440454
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