CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
matthewg
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

Linto63 wrote: Although inevitably they will at some point operate as single sets as operational needs dictate.
Given that the trams are not fitted with automatic couplers, I highly doubt regular operation as a single unit will be seen. They have to be split and joined in the depot. That's a lot of mucking about to split a set after the evening peak and then join them back up for the next morning.

Two couple a set the two covers have to be removed and stowed somewhere (not on the tram), the couplers unfolded, locked, then the cars coupled, locked, at least 2 jumper cables plugged in, the coupler 'safe' cover put over and then the car tested. You are looking at a minimum of 10 minutes probably more to couple a pair. They will send a pair out with the 2nd set locked off before spending time uncoupling and recoupling.

I think for all practical purposes, the trams are a fixed 10 section cars. They will only split for maintenance.
Last edited by matthewg on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Passenger 57 »

l
tonyp wrote:whereas a bus operation will choke up on its own conga line, plus struggling to feed through traffic lights. That was the problem that used to exist in George St.
Is the conga line problem caused by stops not being long enough? Aren't both problems solvable by having more densely packed buses possibly with more doors and exits?Trams conga line too but unlike buses arrangements for overtaking are much more difficult. Isn't part of the reason for our monster trams caused by the design deficiencies in the rest of the project such as the lack of traffic light priority and turning loops?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

matthewg wrote: I think for all practical purposes, the trams are a fixed 10 section cars. They will only split for maintenance.
Why not just join single ended trams back to back preferably with a walk through arrangement then. Is this more to do with the future resale/reuse of the vehicles?
moa999
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

From memory the double coupling came from stop design.

The original plan was for 7 segment or ~45m trams but stops that were double this length.

They then went back to the 2x33m 5-segment and shorter platforms.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

matthewg wrote:Given that the trams are not fitted with automatic couplers, I highly doubt regular operation as a single unit will be seen. They have to be split and joined in the depot.
That being the case, then it would be unlikely they would operate as single units, had just assumed that they had automatic couplers. Maybe the odd very early or late night service, but probably only in the event of a stock shortage rather than anything diagrammed.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by STMPainter2018 »

Passenger 57 wrote:Isn't part of the reason for our monster trams caused by the design deficiencies in the rest of the project such as the lack of traffic light priority
Trams are getting traffic light priority though. https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/syd ... 5030l.html
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

matthewg wrote: Given that the trams are not fitted with automatic couplers, I highly doubt regular operation as a single unit will be seen.
Not even for inevitable use on the Inner West Line?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

Linto63 wrote:Loading gauge is fine, at least as far as Lilyfield, as the Citadis will be cleared to run empty to the depot there. IIRC it is to do with the platform heights differing.
There's also the little problem of the crossing frogs and check rails in the IWLR pointwork being railway standard as opposed to the tramway standard the CSELR has. I have been told by friends in the know however, that it is in the pipeline to convert these aspects to the same tram standard used on the CSELR, to allow for the safe movement of Citadis cars. Until then, they have to move over the points very slowly and late at night.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

If they convert them to full tramway spec, won't that make it difficult for IW trams to use them?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Can the new trams operate to Lilyfield as a double set or do they need to be uncoupled?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

I've only seen photos of single sets there so far, but doubles may come later.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Educating football players and cyclists to be sensible ?? :roll: :roll:
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matthewg
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

boronia wrote:If they convert them to full tramway spec, won't that make it difficult for IW trams to use them?
The IWLR trams have hybrid wheels NOT railway wheels. They are perfectly capable of using 'standard' tramway street pointwork. They are now running through 'standard' tramway points every time they cross George Street.

I see I'm going to have to get a decent picture of one of these wheels and post it.

The wheel shape is the German 'Tram-Train' profile that allows street running AND railway running shared with heavy rail trains. It was never necessary for the SLR. I believe the whole hybrid thing came from a never enacted plan to continue to service the flour mills by heavy rail. The last mill closed way before the civil construction on the SLR started, but the tram-train bit was never removed from the specification so the possibility of heavy rail trains to run onto the SLR tracks remains, despite the track now being completely disconnected from the heavy rail network.
Ironically as part of noise mitigation work after complaints from the new housing at Wentworth park when the system first started operations, gap fillers were put in the point crossing frogs to stop the wheels from banging through the crossing. This would have prevented a railway profile wheel from using the points anyway unless they were removed before the train came through - but they kept the railway compatible raised check-rails.

By the time the Dulwich Hill extension came along, it was pretty clear that shared running was NEVER going to happen, but kept to the same standard and put in heavy rail equipment.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

Well the quicker the point work and platforms are modified to CSELR tram standards, the better. Then we can have a consistent and compatible Light Rail network across the board.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

Just to clarify what the wheel thing is, I attach two photos of a Variotram wheel. This wheel is badly worn but does demonstrate the profile reasonably accurately. (Motor bogie, ex 2106, never repaired after the derailment, now part of the spares pool for 2107)
The wheels on the IWLR CAF cars look much the same.

The two major things from a 'plain' tram wheel - a tram wheel generally has less 'coning' and would be flatter on the running face. Tram-train wheels have a steeper angle to promote stability at speed with less flange strike when running on the railway. (which often have canted rails, whereas tram rails are laid flat to the road surface.)

The flange itself is a bit deeper/taller than a typical tram flange, but the thickness is typical. (but not for 'traditional Sydney' which ran rather thin flanges)

The real 'magic' happens on the wheel back. Notice the step. This step is for the railway point check-rails. It is high enough that on-street tracks it plays no part at all. (unless you happen to be running traditional Sydney tramway points which had raised check-rails instead of being totally flat as per normal tramway practice!). A normal tram wheel would run straight up from the flange back without the noticeable thickening and step.

This wheel would have no problems running around Melbourne unmodified.

Whereas a tram without this 'step', running on a 'heavy railway' would have to negotiate every set of points with extreme care lest a wheel jumps up and out of a points frog. Back in the days of yore when transferring Sydney tram cars from Kogarah or Strathfield (or even North Sydney) over the railway, the transfer crew carried special plates they would drop over each point frog they came to, to ensure the thin tramway flanges would go the right way and not derail.
The department though this so time-consuming and annoying they eventually built 'The Lizard' a road transporter trailer for tramcars, that in its day was the highest technology in road transport of the time.

One solution I saw used in France where a section of the tramway was shared with a heavy rail ndustrial siding is moveable frog points - so there can be no confusion at the crossing which way the flange should go for either profile.

MG Variotram tram-train  hybrid wheel 1.jpg
MG Variotram tram-train  hybrid wheel 2.jpg
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

After learning all this science on different wheel flange styles for rails and their cross overs, I now know there's two chances of seeing a wheat consist on Anzac Pde or Alison Rd -non and Buckley's!!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Which reminds me of a business in Melbourne I used to deal with - Buckley's and Nunn.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/nsw ... e=rss_feed

It seems a bit late in the day to reconsider the design of the Anzac/Alison intersection. Hasn't construction already started?
Sydney CBD bypass plans to be scaled back to allay residents' concerns
Matt O'Sullivan
By Matt O'Sullivan
July 7, 2019 — 10.02pm

Plans for a major upgrade to a congested road corridor in Sydney's inner south will be scaled back after concerns from residents and City of Sydney about the size of the project.

Tentative plans unveiled more than two years ago for a 3.2-kilometre road corridor from Alexandria to Moore Park included extra lanes, bigger intersections, 24-hour clearways at the cost of car parking, trees, and properties – potentially including a large pub. They were designed to help cope with vehicles funnelled from an interchange at St Peters for the WestConnex toll road.

But the state's transport agency has since undertaken more detailed plans on incorporating the road upgrade into a broader transport strategy for the fast-growing suburbs in the inner south.

The owner of the Moore Park View Hotel on the corner of South Dowling and Lachlan streets is longing for certainty.

Transport for NSW secretary Rodd Staples said the agency was rethinking the scope of the project, after "some really strong views" from the City of Sydney Council.
"Stepping back and having the conversation about the whole [transport needs] with [the City of Sydney] has been really beneficial," he said. "They have given us really strong views about Alexandria-Moore Park and so we're rethinking the scope of that and how we might deliver that."

A scaling back of the road upgrade is part of a push by the agency to focus on the transport needs of areas in their entirety, instead of targeting single forms of transport such as roads or trains.

Motorists use the road corridor between Alexandria and Moore Park to bypass the southern end of Sydney's CBD.

Mr Staples said it was too early to reveal the extent of the changes to the project but noted it was likely to include "more of a balance" between vehicles and the high number of pedestrians in the area, the needs of cyclists and the speed of vehicles along the road corridor.

Sydney lord mayor Clover Moore said she was "very pleased" to hear Transport for NSW was rethinking the scope of the road project.

"The project, as initially proposed, would have turned the southern end of our city into the eastern on-ramp for WestConnex, increasing congestion and rat runs on already congested local roads and destroying existing trees in Australia’s most urbanised area," she said.

"The goal in rethinking the proposal should be to see the road functioning as a 40km/h ‘main street’, rather than a multi-lane highway moving vehicles through the densely populated and pedestrianised area at high speeds."

The so-called continuous flow intersection planned for Moore Park.

Under the initial plans, roads officials proposed a massive "continuous flow intersection" at Anzac Parade, designed so that right-turn movements "occur in advance of the main intersection", allowing more "green time for through traffic".

But Cr Moore said the continuous flow intersection was an experiment in road planning and should be shelved because it would eat into parkland and force pedestrians seeking to gain access to Moore Park, to navigate 12 lanes of traffic and two light rail lines.

The road corridor runs through the so-called Green Square precinct, now dominated by apartment towers and forecast to become the most densely populated urban area in Australia. By 2030, up to 70,000 people are predicted to call the precinct home.

The key east-west route south of the CBD runs from Euston Street at Maddox Street, Alexandria, along McEvoy and Lachlan streets, and Dacey Avenue to the intersection of Anzac Parade and Alison Road at Moore Park.

The Green Square precinct will soon become the most densely populated urban area in the country.

Under the preliminary designs, 42 individual property lots – nine of them residential – in private ownership were to be affected by the project.

Moore Park View Hotel, on the corner of Lachlan and South Dowling streets in Waterloo, was one of those earmarked in late 2017 for possible acquisition.

But owner John Doble said he had not heard from roads officials for about 18 months and longed for some certainty about the project. "We are limited [in renovating the hotel] – nobody wants to spend half a million on renovations if the pub could be pulled down in 12 months," he said.

The transport agency's preferred concept design for the project is set to be released late this year.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by lunchbox »

Current construction is, I understand, simply to accommodate the light rail. The plans for the spew-out from WestConnex, including the "constant flow" features, showed an even greater land-take than the present works.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

lunchbox wrote:Current construction is, I understand, simply to accommodate the light rail. The plans for the spew-out from WestConnex, including the "constant flow" features, showed an even greater land-take than the present works.
They only have less than eight months to have whatever intersection it is ready for the Kingsford branch opening - much less taking into account testing. Personally I don't care what it is as long as the trams have full priority through the intersection.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

The proposed layout for the new intersection was revealed long before the track was laid, so presumably any changes can be made without intefering with this track. Roadworks around the N/e corner seem to conform with this layout too.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Fleet Lists »

I believe that the intersection concerned was approved some time ago well before this plan was mooted.The area in conflict is west of this intersection.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Lachlan St and O'Dea Ave have been bottlenecks in peak hours for the last 20+ years, long before any of this local development or WCX were thought of.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by swtt »

boronia wrote:Lachlan St and O'Dea Ave have been bottlenecks in peak hours for the last 20+ years, long before any of this local development or WCX were thought of.
Sydney seems to have profoundly stupid intersection designs which have continued to be permitted to survive into the 21st century!

Lachlan Ave/O'Dea Ave's "Z" turns are one of them. Unbelievable.
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