CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

More propaganda:
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/fir ... 523oj.html
'First time in half century': Most striking feature of Sydney's new trams
Matt O'Sullivan
By Matt O'Sullivan
July 3, 2019 — 3.14pm

What is most striking about one of Sydney's new trams, parked alongside St Andrew's Cathedral and Town Hall in the heart of Sydney's CBD, is its length.

At 67 metres from end to end, the trams, due to start carrying passengers along George Street from Circular Quay to Randwick by the first week of December, are among the longest in the world.
A new 67-metre tram parked at Town Hall on Wednesday.

A new 67-metre tram parked at Town Hall on Wednesday.Credit:Brook Mitchel

While pedestrians wondered about their size, the logic of pairing two trams to form 67-metre sets capable of carrying up to 450 passengers is that they will be able to move more people more quickly and avoid a conga line of single-set trams from forming at intersections.

Cost blowouts, repeated delays to construction, legal disputes and major disruption to businesses and residents along the 12.7-kilometre length of the line have dogged the project over the past three years, causing political headaches for the state government.

But with testing of trams along George Street set to ramp up, Premier Gladys Berejiklian declared on Wednesday that the "light at the end of the light rail project is here".

Asked whether the new line was worth its cost of nearly $3 billion, Ms Berejiklian said its value would become evident once people began travelling on it by the end of the year.
Premier Gladys Berejiklian and Transport Minister Andrew Constance inspect a tram parked at Town Hall.

Premier Gladys Berejiklian and Transport Minister Andrew Constance inspect a tram parked at Town Hall.Credit:Brook Mitchell

"To build this project in the heart of the busiest street in the nation hasn't been without its challenges but I'm really, really positive about the outcome," she said.

"Hopefully in many decades to come, people will look back and think, 'Wow, that was visionary public policy.' We haven't seen the sight of this for at least half a century."

Day-time testing of trams from Randwick to Town Hall will begin within the next few weeks. By the end of next month, trams will be tested at night on the rest of the line along George Street to Circular Quay, and day-time testing will occur several weeks later.

Epping resident Judy Craig grew up travelling on trams in Sydney before what was one of the largest tram networks in the world was torn up in the 1950s and early '60s. She misses their character, atmosphere and familiar clanging noises as they traversed the city.
How Sydney's carriages measure up.

How Sydney's carriages measure up. Credit: Graphic: Remi Bianchi

"It looks like a people mover and not something you would go on to get a pleasant ride around Sydney in," she said of the new tram parked at Town Hall on Wednesday.

"But I do hope it works – they have gone to so much trouble. If it is going to get people home quicker, then it is good."

Transport Minister Andrew Constance said the light rail project would make George Street "one of the true great boulevards of the world", resulting in a kilometre-long pedestrian zone and removing what had previously been a street full of buses.

While the line from Randwick is due to open in December, trams are not expected to begin carrying passengers along a branch line to Kingsford until March next year.
Day-time testing of the trams to Town Hall will start in the next few weeks.

Day-time testing of the trams to Town Hall will start in the next few weeks. Credit:Brook Mitchell

Travel times for commuters going from one end of the line to the other has been estimated at between 34 and 38 minutes.

But the actual journey time will not be determined until October or November, after traffic lights at intersections are tweaked during the testing phase. Trams will get priority over motorists at traffic lights to ensure the former meet their travel times.

Transport for NSW co-ordinator Marg Prendergast doubted motorists and pedestrians would notice much difference in their waiting times at intersections following the start of tram services.

"We are going to be moving the tram with the pedestrians crossing [street intersections] ... and it will move through quicker than the pedestrians," she said.

"It's a bit of a myth that [the trams are] going to tail out and take ages through an intersection."

The two-set trams will operate between 5am and 1am when the line is opened to regular passenger services in December. Fares for trips on the line will be announced closer to the start of services.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
STMPainter2018
Posts: 264
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:38 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

Heard online that there was a coupled set on display at the future Town Hall stop as part of the Government’s tram safety campaign. So I went in this afternoon and finally got the chance to see our brand new Citadis trams in person for the first time ever! I’m very excited for these vehicles, I honestly think they have the potential to be the modern day equivalent of the Sydney P class trams!
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab82.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab83.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab84.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab85.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab86.jpg
Jp4LhggGSoaUEwTlMvRiYA_thumb_ab87.jpg
Jp4LhggGSoaUEwTlMvRiYA_thumb_ab87.jpg (261.89 KiB) Viewed 2982 times
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab88.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab88.jpg (222.81 KiB) Viewed 2982 times
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab89.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab8c-2.jpg
UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_ab8e-2.jpg
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

STMPainter2018 wrote: I honestly think they have the potential to be the modern day equivalent of the Sydney P class trams!
So previously Doran's Glasshouses, now Constance's Glasshouses. :wink:
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
boronia
Posts: 19641
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:18 am
Favourite Vehicle: Fire engine; PD4107
Location: Sydney

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Gladys's Glasshouses has a better ring to it.

Wouldn't the orders have been placed under her time?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again June 2021
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11107
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

How do the pedestrians avoid shocks with the third rail?
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
These days truth is the new hate speech.
Conservatives hate lies, the left hate the truth.
User avatar
rogf24
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:20 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by rogf24 »

Swift wrote:How do the pedestrians avoid shocks with the third rail?
From Sydney Light Rail's Facebook page.
https://www.facebook.com/SydneyLightRai ... =3&theater
moa999
Posts: 2586
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

Swift wrote:How do the pedestrians avoid shocks with the third rail?
It's only active when a tram is over the segment - from memory 11m or so.
User avatar
Swift
Posts: 11107
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:23 pm
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

moa999 wrote:
Swift wrote:How do the pedestrians avoid shocks with the third rail?
It's only active when a tram is over the segment - from memory 11m or so.
Double the reason not to end up under one in a shared zone.
Global w̶a̶r̶m̶i̶n̶g̶ hoax.
These days truth is the new hate speech.
Conservatives hate lies, the left hate the truth.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

So far around the world, nobody has been electrocuted by APS.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
matthewg
Posts: 1591
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:11 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

moa999 wrote:
Swift wrote:How do the pedestrians avoid shocks with the third rail?
It's only active when a tram is over the segment - from memory 11m or so.
That's assuming the control contacts don't weld on (or 'punch through') and leave the segment live. APS-I and APS-II have quite visible 'safety segments' that cause a short to earth through the shoe gear if a segment fails to turn off. Sydney doesn't have this, so it's unclear how/if Sydney has similar 'crowbar' projection against segment switching failure.

I saw plenty of evidence that this protection HAD been 'activated' in Bordeaux and some in Dubai. (It leaves a small amount of carbon scoring on the safety segment)

The line breaker or high-speed circuit breaker on a modern tram is physically the largest component on the vehicle. The substations have very large breakers - all to deal with the arc you get when switching DC.
APS needs the equivalent of high current line breaker every 20m that operates 100s or even 1000s of times a day.

I THINK the Sydney trams have additional shoes at each end of the car that presumably are earthed, much like the end sill brushes on the stud systems of old, but all the Light Rail PR people do is quote reports that have no detail just 'motherhood statements' about how safe it is and refer to a different variant of the system than Sydney has.

Since it's unlikely the PR people will be forthcoming with technical details or that I will be able to get a look under a car over an inspection pit in the depot, I'll have to try putting my camera on the ground next to the track as a tram goes by.

The Citadis do have 'lifeguards', there is a trip gate and ramp under the ends like the trams of old.
Passenger 57
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

Why is the coupling such a monstrosity? Have they made any mention of running these uncoupled?
User avatar
J_Busworth
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:56 am
Favourite Vehicle: Scania L113TRB Ansair Orana
Location: On the X74, because it's faster than the tram
Contact:

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by J_Busworth »

Passenger 57 wrote:Why is the coupling such a monstrosity? Have they made any mention of running these uncoupled?
The intention is for all services to run as coupled trams. There is no intention at this stage to ever see them operational as single units.
https://transportnswblog.com
RIP STA 14.5s 28/01/93 - 05/12/19
User avatar
Fleet Lists
Administrator
Posts: 21627
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:49 pm
Location: The Shire

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Fleet Lists »

What is that based on?
Living in the Shire.
Passenger 57
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: Trams are being returned to increase street public transport capacity in operations where buses can't provide the capacity. These are also typically very busy and crowded operations in which turnover and circulation are very important issues.
Are we talking about NSW here? I'm not arguing that trams don't have the attributes you cite merely that the NSW government is more concerned about image, votes, helping out property and infrastructure developers and crushing unions.

The CSELR is severely capacity limited in its current form. The Newcastle changes were nothing to do with capacity. It would be nice if we had honest analysis to find the best transport solutions rather than deciding on the solution first and preparing some usually dodgy business case for it. Unfortunately, given the extortionate costs of new infrastructure its a a bit hard to see how genuine business cases for anything that involves anything more than basic roadway can be successful.

I certainly hope that no jurisdiction is considering phasing out artics because they're the only bus type that provides these same attributes, albeit at a lower capacity, but better than nothing when there is no alternative tram or train service available. And it's not artics that take up too much road space, it's cars.
Given the costs of infrastructure, we need even longer artics. It seems to me that with (preferably optical) guidance technology they can be even longer than the longest examples currently in service. I'd also like to see trolleybuses where its justified to string up wiring until battery technology is good enough as part of our mix.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Fleet Lists wrote:What is that based on?
Nothing so far, it's a supposition. I've never seen any documentation or statement against single unit operation. It's just that the basic capacity requirement for CSELR requires double units. I've no doubt single units may be used in future from time to time - maybe even on IWLR.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
Linto63
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote:
Fleet Lists wrote:What is that based on?
Nothing so far, it's a supposition.
Really? Each LRV will operate in a 67-metre couple set. Although inevitably they will at some point operate as single sets as operational needs dictate.
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Are we talking about NSW here? I'm not arguing that trams don't have the attributes you cite merely that the NSW government is more concerned about image, votes, helping out property and infrastructure developers and crushing unions.

The CSELR is severely capacity limited in its current form.
About 13,500 people per hour per direction compared to Bondi route operated by artics maxing out at iirc about 2,000-3,000 pphpd? That doesn't sound capacity limited to me. Compared to a metro maybe but that sort of capacity isn't required on the CSELR corridors.
Passenger 57 wrote:Given the costs of infrastructure, we need even longer artics. It seems to me that with (preferably optical) guidance technology they can be even longer than the longest examples currently in service. I'd also like to see trolleybuses where its justified to string up wiring until battery technology is good enough as part of our mix.
Since even double artics have much less capacity than one of the CSELR trams that isn't an answer either. Re electrification I agree with you, but with artics it's more likely to be in-motion charging than battery only. I do absolutely agree with the need for more artics but single artics will do the job required of them. Anything longer won't even be allowed on Australian roads in any case.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote:Really? Each LRV will operate in a 67-metre couple set. Although inevitably they will at some point operate as single sets as operational needs dictate.
Which is exactly what I said.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
Passenger 57
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote:I've no doubt single units may be used in future from time to time - maybe even on IWLR.
Did imagine reading somewhere, maybe this forum, that the IWLR was incompatible with them currently? Loading gauge?
Linto63
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

Passenger 57 wrote:Did imagine reading somewhere, maybe this forum, that the IWLR was incompatible with them currently? Loading gauge?
Loading gauge is fine, at least as far as Lilyfield, as the Citadis will be cleared to run empty to the depot there. IIRC it is to do with the platform heights differing.
Passenger 57
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote:
Passenger 57 wrote: Are we talking about NSW here? I'm not arguing that trams don't have the attributes you cite merely that the NSW government is more concerned about image, votes, helping out property and infrastructure developers and crushing unions.

The CSELR is severely capacity limited in its current form.
About 13,500 people per hour per direction compared to Bondi route operated by artics maxing out at iirc about 2,000-3,000 pphpd? That doesn't sound capacity limited to me. Compared to a metro maybe but that sort of capacity isn't required on the CSELR corridors.
At 4 passengers per square metre. Realstic? As I understand it, it won't meet future demand projections for all the intended development and will need to be supplemented by buses. The Bondi route is shared roadway much of it only 2 lanes in each direction and only while the clearway is operating. Anzac Parade is a different beast. Is it worth spending $1.6 billion let alone $3 billion on this project? How many buses could $1.6 billion have bought? And the capital costs wouldn't have blown out. Will the tramway recover anywhere near the huge additional capital cost via lower operating costs? Please assume each mode is operated as efficiently as possible and with equivalent standing/seating proportions.
I do absolutely agree with the need for more artics but single artics will do the job required of them. Anything longer won't even be allowed on Australian roads in any case.
Well, then we need to change the rules. (Unless autonomous trailer units following along the path of the lead vehicle becomes reality and a legal alternative.)
moa999
Posts: 2586
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:12 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by moa999 »

And I suspect it's probably only millimetres more than the required standard.
(In any event many of the IWLR vehicles aren't flat boarding - eg. The raised humps at Central).

But I think more importantly it just wouldn't be efficient. A 33m tram would block a 70m stop.
Passenger 57
Posts: 828
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 9:43 pm

Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Passenger 57 »

moa999 wrote:A 33m tram would block a 70m stop.
Why would that matter? You'd only run single units when demand was low enough. The only inefficiency would be from having to recouple and uncouple the vehicles. Otherwise, I think its a win to save energy and wear and tear.
gascoyne
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:10 am
Location: Sydney. Where else?

Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by gascoyne »

tonyp wrote: About 13,500 people per hour per direction ...
No, CSELR capacity is half that. 15 trams at 450 pax is 6750 pphpd. Or do you want standees at 8 per square metre?
User avatar
tonyp
Posts: 9691
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven

Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by tonyp »

gascoyne wrote:
No, CSELR capacity is half that. 15 trams at 450 pax is 6750 pphpd. Or do you want standees at 8 per square metre?
I was citing design capacity. Yes startup capacity is half that - except for special events when trams can be every two minutes. The design capacity of the line is for trams every two minutes from the Quay onwards, splitting to four minutes down each of the branches. Upon opening, the line will be running at half its capacity or less. There's heaps of scope for delivering much more capacity, whereas a bus operation will choke up on its own conga line, plus struggling to feed through traffic lights. That was the problem that used to exist in George St.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
Post Reply

Return to “Discussion - Sydney / NSW”