CBD & South East Light Rail

[boxythingy]

UNSW students won't be too happy to lose their 891 speeds. But they will be happy to not be sardined? It may be a slower journey for those who are at the front of the queue, but faster for those towards the back ie. long queue waiting time+actual bus travel time.

Let's hope the tram will get priority?


25-30 mins, is comparable to a delayed MetroBus M50 journey from High Street-Devonshire I think, which takes around 21min.

Video found on TfNSW's youtube channel.

[Bedford-29]

I was having a look at the pictures of the blue face trams with one headlight and wondering if they are going use aps pick-up for the city area and change to overhead like Moore pk for the rest of the trip.As there is the newer tramways in France using aps.Place like Bordeaux,Angers Reims to name a few that aps ground power pick-up and wonder if aps could be used in Sydney.Picture from Wikipedia.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply

[gld59]

A lot will depend of course on replanning all the light sequences and particularly going for the European short cycles rather than the long cycles used here

Some more firm direction from gov't will be required to achieve that, I suspect. RMS will probably oppose short cycles because it increases the amount of all-red time. The former tobacco lord now advising on infrastructure will probably oppose it, too, because it would represent a shift in ideology from optimising for cars to optimising for people.

Of course it'll also be annoying for anyone caught behind a dozy driver who's too slow to move (though on the other hand there'll be less time to wait for the next green).

gld

[crimsontide]

I had to laugh, at work was a copy of a complaint to 131500 regarding the proposed light rail, saying the caller was very disappointed with the decision to introduce trams and they were removed because they were accident hazard to cars.


The first complaint about the light rail, before a sod has been turned on the line..

[simonl]

Can anyone tell me where all the buses from Parramatta & Victoria Rds will go once they start building this?

Surely that is a problem which should have been solved before green lighting this plan.

It's in the Sydney Light Rail Future report.

Thanks tonyp. It's still incredibly vague though. The suggestions are buses will (a) use Elizabeth St via Eddy Av and (b) use Sussex St via some squiggly line.

The part I find interesting is the plan itself appears to forecast reduced PT use. Currently bus numbers approaching the CBD 8am-9am are:
113 from Victoria Rd reducing by 28
175 from Parramatta Rd reducing by 33
85 from Chalmers St reducing by 49
33 from Foveaux St being eliminated - no more 339, 374, 376, 391 via Foveaux St!
23 from Campbell St increasing by one
99 from Oxford St reducing by 27
45 from William St reducing by 7
56 from the ED increasing by 4
379 from the Bridge reducing by 55

Ok, I can see why Campbell St, Foveaux St and Oxford St might reduce with the LR, but why are William St, Victoria Rd and Parramatta Rd reducing? I guess they are including a reduction in buses over the bridge with the NWRL.

[moa999]

Reading the text it appears
7% of Bridge services to be redirected to Cahill Xpressway and then terminate on Bridge St.
William St seems to be creating an East-West spine so I suspect some of 311/325/326/327 to have a transfer with LR instead
Some Victoria and Parramtta Rd services will also seem to terminate at Central driving to LR

[simonl]

7% of Bridge services to be redirected to Cahill Xpressway and then terminate on Bridge St.

This has already been announced, except they are to continue past Bridge St. Doesn't account for the reduction of 55 buses/hr though.

William St seems to be creating an East-West spine so I suspect some of 311/325/326/327 to have a transfer with LR instead
Some Victoria and Parramtta Rd services will also seem to terminate at Central driving to LR

If that is what they are referring to it is very poorly put. It shows a reduction in buses approaching the CBD on those corridors.

[Skindog the Hawk]

Some Victoria and Parramtta Rd services will also seem to terminate at Central driving to LR

The 501 would be the prime candidate there, seeing as though it runs through Central Station already - that's 8 or 9 services.
Makes you wonder what else would "move along"...

SD.

[tonyp]

UNSW students won't be too happy to lose their 891 speeds. But they will be happy to not be sardined? It may be a slower journey for those who are at the front of the queue, but faster for those towards the back ie. long queue waiting time+actual bus travel time.

25-30 mins, is comparable to a delayed MetroBus M50 journey from High Street-Devonshire I think, which takes around 21min.

So the UNSW expresses take max 21 down to what minimum time?

I've come to the conclusion that they've lazily based their tram journey time estimate on the SLR's performance. And that's underperformance.

Also take into account that the journey-time figure is from Kingsford (SE side of the roundabout) to Eddy Ave, not from UNSW. What are present best bus times between Kingsford and Eddy Ave?

[boronia]

Pre-peak times from Kingsford to Railway Sq are as low as 16 minutes. Eddy Ave would be 1 - 2 minutes less.

[simonl]

Some Victoria and Parramtta Rd services will also seem to terminate at Central driving to LR

The 501 would be the prime candidate there, seeing as though it runs through Central Station already - that's 8 or 9 services.
Makes you wonder what else would "move along"...

SD.

I can't understand why nothing has been done about that already. I would say that it should run to Domain like 461/480/483 used to, I think one still does.

So the UNSW expresses take max 21 down to what minimum time?

Longest timetabled trip I can see outbound is 16 minutes.

I can't see this being a positive move. Bus congestion is a problem so let's make them run through fewer streets in the city? Sorry.

I've come to the conclusion that they've lazily based their tram journey time estimate on the SLR's performance. And that's underperformance.

Not SLR's fault that they are restricted to 20km/h through the CBD.

[gld59]

The 501 would be the prime candidate there, seeing as though it runs through Central Station already - that's 8 or 9 services.
Makes you wonder what else would "move along"...

SD.

I can't understand why nothing has been done about that already. I would say that it should run to Domain like 461/480/483 used to, I think one still does.

(There's a (temporary?) reduction in services to the Domain because of construction works impinging on the terminus.) 501 extends to the Quay late night and early morning, so running it to the Domain at other times could create confusion.

gld

[simonl]

501 extends to the Quay late night and early morning, so running it to the Domain at other times could create confusion.

Isn't the 520 running then? Where's the confusion? Even if you say you need to start from the Quay outbound in the evenings, it's far less confusing a system than the 3 terminii for the 380.

[gld59]

The 380, like the 501, works by extending the route to different termini. An extension may create a little confusion, an alternative route can probably create much more confusion.

The 501 extension operates mostly at times other Victoria Rd routes are not running, effectively servicing both the 501 and M52/520 routes.

gld

[boronia]

Mention has been made of bridges across Dowling St and Anzac Pde, but I wonder how it will cross the section of Moore Park between these two roads. I can't see the greenies being happy with a ground level track splitting the park in half, and as for an " unsightly" viaduct across it

[moa999]

I imagine they will buyout the commercial premises between Parkham and Nobbs lane, then bridge over the ED - would think the main South Dowling xn is level, then follow close to the alignment of the existing curved pedestrian path, so as not to disturb the playing fields too much.
Maybe a combined pedestrian/ tram bridge over Anzac Parade (a pedestrian bridge has been shown in some SCG precinct photos) and potentially use the existing bus loop for the SCG/SFS to turn back onto Anzac Parade.

[boronia]

Earlier this year the RTA/RMS was circulating a discussion paper on creating a dedicated pedestrian route between Central and Moore Park. This was to feature enhanced footpaths on the selected streets with bridges over Dowling St and Anzac Pde. I think Devonshire was one of the alternatives put forward. Perhaps there is opportunity to combine both projects on the same alignment?

A walking path through the park would be fairly innocuous. A double track tramway with attendant wiring structures would not.

[moa999]

Photo from SCG website showing footbridge near end of Sydney Boys/Girls:


http://www.scgt.nsw.gov.au/latest-news/sydneylightrail/

Note I would sure hope that buses can still continue to travel on the existing busway (as well as the trams)
I also think the trams will have needed to start heading to Central at the point shown in the pic.

[moa999]

As for the wiring required for a tram,
was down in Melbourne on the weekend and a couple of comments.
1. Trams are defintely not quiet (some you could hardly talk in)
2. With the boarding patterns in Melbourne, fare evasion is derigure.

But more interested in the wiring.
At most points the wiring comes from the side of the road using either light poles or dedicated poles. This adds quite a bit of visual pollution across a road that may be footpath, regular lane, tram lane x2, reg lane, footpath, as well as the tram electric cable itself, but appears common in most overseas locations.
However in some points (particulrly around St Kilda) the poles were in the centre, and supported two upside down flat u-shapes which were about a metre wide, holding the support/tensioning wire for the main cable. This certainly reduce visual pollution along the sides of the road.

[moa999]

moore park.jpg (188.96 KiB) Viewed 11042 times

My quick and dirty Moore park map.
Have kept the SCG stop loop as it provides for a better gradient for the proposed bridge, and can be a non-stop on most days.

[hornetfig]

Heh. No trams planned for where that artists impression is showing them. (And the left background is from an entirely different set of renders from a different angle of an SCG development)

[08 XDi]

I compared with Prague but, closer to home, even compared with Gold Coast which has similar average stop-spacings, it is far too slow.

And I thought Gold Coast was too slow!

I know your expertise on the subject Tony, so I'd be curious to know how you think the Gold Coast system might run faster without removing stops. I haven't encountered many industry people with a negative view of the stop spacing or general operating plans, outside the bus lobby of course.

(I've been told the "official" journey time of 37 minutes end to end isn't necessarily as fast as is possible, just what would be ultra-reliable - but obviously a tram every 7 minutes doesn't require 100% on-time running.)

[tonyp]

1. Trams are defintely not quiet (some you could hardly talk in)

Melbourne has older and not the best trams. Get yourself to Prague or Riga and see the Skoda 15T, deathly quiet - too quiet, I almost got run over by one!

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2691 ... 3ba04o.jpg

I know your expertise on the subject Tony, so I'd be curious to know how you think the Gold Coast system might run faster without removing stops.

I think it's hard to judge until live trials take place, but based on comparison with similar in Europe, the Gold Coast run should take less than 30 mins end to end. A lot will depend on the driving style of the trams and traffic lights.

[simonl]

Is this going to run down the centre of Anzac Pde south of Alison Rd or in the kerbside lanes? Will there be an extra phase in the traffic lights at Alison Rd/Anzac Pde so the trams can reach the east side of Anzac Pde or some other solution?

[tonyp]

Is this going to run down the centre of Anzac Pde south of Alison Rd or in the kerbside lanes? Will there be an extra phase in the traffic lights at Alison Rd/Anzac Pde so the trams can reach the east side of Anzac Pde or some other solution?

Since no one else has answered maybe I can help by saying I don't know! I think design details are probably a way down the track (so to speak). The potential for kerbside running would be affected by the number of driveways etc.