CBD & South East Light Rail

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Linto63
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Prague operates 850 trams over 25 routes, Sydney 72 over 3. Yet Prague only has a population one quarter that of Sydney (1.3 vs 5.4 million), so there are 50 times more trams per head of population. Understandably, trams are a much bigger noise over there.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

Any wonder Sydney is not taken seriously by anyone outside the South Pacific?
We continue to function in a bubble with mediocrity woven into the fabric of our society.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:07 pm Prague operates 850 trams over 25 routes, Sydney 72 over 3. Yet Prague only has a population one quarter that of Sydney (1.3 vs 5.4 million), so there are 50 times more trams per head of population. Understandably, trams are a much bigger noise over there.
None of that is relevant to comparing performance over particular routes that have some common characteristics and operating contexts - in any city. We're comparing line performance, not entire systems. It's also quite important to spread around the fact that trams aren't inherently slow when they're actually every bit as quick as buses, because that particular libel is often used against them and ruthlessly exploited by opponents. Obviously then it doesn't help when some bumbling agency/operator doesn't know how to run them properly and thus hands over copious ammunition for free to opponents. When that happens you have to bring out other examples to demonstrate what the technology does achieve when implemented properly. When you do that you need to use an example that works well under very intense usage.
Passenger 57
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

tonyp wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:52 pm And it's a shame because it negatively affects perception of trams as a transport solution, which in turn affects whether new lines have a chance of being built or not, which in turn, if they're not, eliminates the possibility of the only solution for the capacity gap between buses and trains that we need on certain corridors.
Even if the CSELR had run as well as Prague from day one there is still the issue of infrastructure costs. Still the blow out in CSELR costs was not entirely bad as its probably help caused a shift to metros as the preferred mode for new projects which is not entirely a bad thing since the government only seems to fund projects in growth corridors. Really, the CSELR should have been underground rail to cater for all the future planned growth; as I understand it, additional bus services will eventually need to be added if the CSELR is to retain its current configuration. Since the government only funds areas with growth potential I doubt we'll ever see any improvement in Bondi Rd services for example even if trams remain on the table (well, not unless it becomes more electorally marginal.)
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:39 am
Even if the CSELR had run as well as Prague from day one there is still the issue of infrastructure costs. Still the blow out in CSELR costs was not entirely bad as its probably help caused a shift to metros as the preferred mode for new projects which is not entirely a bad thing since the government only seems to fund projects in growth corridors. Really, the CSELR should have been underground rail to cater for all the future planned growth; as I understand it, additional bus services will eventually need to be added if the CSELR is to retain its current configuration. Since the government only funds areas with growth potential I doubt we'll ever see any improvement in Bondi Rd services for example even if trams remain on the table (well, not unless it becomes more electorally marginal.)
In any of these public transport megaprojects where the inception/costs are a bungle, in reality in time they fade from pubic perception. The best way to help them fade from memory before the next election cycle is to have a good outcome. If they were running like Prague trams, all the initial angst would certainly be forgotten pretty quickly. Even with the way the lines run at present, within their own catchment, they're catching on with the public - indeed increasingly popular. The remaining issue is journeys to and from beyond their catchment involving interchange. That's where faster trips would help eliminate a festering sore.

There will be a metro down the SE corridor eventually but it won't deliver the coverage (stop spacing and branches) that the light rail provides in the inner SE. The light rail is fully justified within the catchment it serves. Buses simply couldn't provide the capacity.
Linto63
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

It was a fantasy to think that the CBDSELR was ever going to be a high speed service. Anybody with a practical understanding of how Sydney operates would have known that. Aside from being a much bigger part of Prague’s transport infrastructure, trams had operated continually for over a century whereas in Sydney for 60 years they were not on the agenda when it came to planning.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:38 pm It was a fantasy to think that the CBDSELR was ever going to be a high speed service. Anybody with a practical understanding of how Sydney operates would have known that. Aside from being a much bigger part of Prague’s transport infrastructure, trams had operated continually for over a century whereas in Sydney for 60 years they were not on the agenda when it came to planning.
The Prague system isn't a high-speed system. The system's maximum speed is 50 km/h. The issue is average (commercial) speeds, revolving around such mundane operational matters as entering, dwelling at and leaving stops, driving style, safeworking system design and selecting the right trams for the job. We can't dismiss it as a European thing either. The old Sydney system operated like the Prague system, with similar quick journey times. The Canberra and Gold Coast lines display some of those operational qualities too. Even Melbourne could operate like this too if it weren't constrained by years of political neglect, they're certainly have the expertise. In Sydney we got the wrong bunch of expertise designing and operating the system.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

While speeds entering and leaving stops will have an affect, the biggest issue is that the CBDSELR crawls for much of its journey from Circular Quay to Central. Little to do with operator competency, but the fact that with multiple government agencies (TfNSW, RMS, City of Sydney), and the politics of each, it was never going to be given absolute priority or travel anywhere near their top speed in this section.
Passenger 57
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Passenger 57 »

What do you expect when you run a tram through a pedestrian mall? Not only does that increase the travel time, it strips potential capacity from the system. Potential capacity is further reduced because of frequency restrictions to, I suppose, maintain the amenity of a pedestrian mall. I have no problem with the mall in George St but to intentionally run a new tram service through it has never made sense to me. I think mixed traffic operation on another street would be preferable to that. Between Town Hall and CQ one may as well use the City Circle given the stop spacings. Personally, I'd prefer a moving footpath ;-)
tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Passenger 57 wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:58 am What do you expect when you run a tram through a pedestrian mall? Not only does that increase the travel time, it strips potential capacity from the system. Potential capacity is further reduced because of frequency restrictions to, I suppose, maintain the amenity of a pedestrian mall. I have no problem with the mall in George St but to intentionally run a new tram service through it has never made sense to me. I think mixed traffic operation on another street would be preferable to that. Between Town Hall and CQ one may as well use the City Circle given the stop spacings. Personally, I'd prefer a moving footpath ;-)
There's plenty of precedent for trams - even buses - running through pedestrian malls and it works fine. The issue for the trams in Sydney is the excessively low speed limit, but even with that constraint they're still lethargically driven in and out of stops. An interesting parallel is the semi-pedestrianised South Terrace in Fremantle which runs through the so-called cappuccino strip and is typically swarming with hundreds of people, day and especially night. South Terrace is also the major bus route southwards out of Fremantle from the railway station interchange and there's a constant stream of buses along it. The speed limit is 30 km/h and in all my many observations there's no problem with pedestrian-bus interaction. In Melbourne, Bourke St mall has worked fine for years. I'm not sure what the speed limit is there.
Linto63
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

Given that they inevitably get held at lights for longish period, having higher acceleration and declaration rates would only have a minimal affect. Melbourne has always had trams, so grandfathering allows it to override more stringent health and safety regulations that will be required for a new build. Also the natives in Melbourne are reasonably tram aware, something that can't be said of Sydney.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by grog »

The focus on speed should be from the suburban termini to Central, people can connect into the rest of the transport network there. The function of the light rail within the CBD is as a circulator, and the difference between 30km/h and 20km/h for the pedestrian section is about 2 minutes. It is more important to make George Street safe and comfortable for walking, with the number of walking trips in the CBD each day dwarfing the number of trips on public transport and by car.

You could actually make the service faster in the CBD with slower speeds and more pedestrianisation, closing the southbound general traffic lane from The Rocks to stop delays here, and closing the general traffic doglegs north of Wynyard. You are already seeing similar benefits from deactivation of traffic signals in the Haymarket area. The mantra in the CBD should be “slow and steady”, or “never be stopping”.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

The times between Randwick/Kingsford to Central are pretty much the same as the buses. Coming outbound, trams don't get caught up in the Cleveland St "sewer" and can be considerably faster.

Haymarket/Chinatown has not improved much with the traffic light changes. The Hay St crossing can cause considerable delays; apart from pedestrians getting priority over the trams, the L1 services seem to get priority over the L2/3 services. Last weekend my L3 sat there while a outbound L1 loaded at Capitol Square, then we waited for an inbound L1 to dawdle up from Paddy's. Perhaps they need a person in a signal box on the corner to co-ordinate these crossings in real time.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

That general dawdling is a critical issue because it's what drags average speed (which is far more critical than maximum speed) down. I'm not sure that we can blame traffic lights so much any more as I understand that they're being ironed out quite well (only need to anticipate the trams better so the trams don't have to slack off approaching the lights).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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As a regular user and critical observer, I often wonder if the slow speed in the CBD is for the benefit of the traffic light coordination. A faster speed might just result in a longer wait at the next intersection. The big problem is the pedestrian crossings, they can't just switch these from green to red and expect people to stop instantly like traffic can.

If there is true "priority", you would expect the same movement patterns every trip. But every trip is different.

Sometimes, for example, they get a clean run, or very short wait, across South Dowling St, other times there will be a wait of up to 30 seconds (sometimes it may be to allow an opposing tram to share the phase, but not always; at other times the green traffic phase has been as short as ten seconds between opposing trams). This is one location that could easily have railway-style approach detection from both directions, but the limited visibility of approaching traffic is still going to require the initial 10 speed limit.

Similar irregularities are evident in the ES Marks to Kensington Junction section. Inbound trams can get a T light to cross Alison Rd, then get blocked to wait for southbound traffic on Anzac, even when there is none approaching. Other times there is a clear run through the crossing. Similar going outbound in this section.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Swift »

It's good they've trimmed running time to the 30s but I think that's been driven by adverse publicity of a bad sounding 40 minute run time. I don't think there is as much impetus to reduce it further.
Avoiding that nasty Cleveland St section and cutting across the middle of Surry Hills is one masterstroke of this tram line. Thank goodness that nimby protest group led by a Johnny come lately were disregarded in the end.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

They need to check priority management in Gold Coast and Canberra which are very good. Pedestrians aren't really an issue. With the short light cycles they have in Europe, the pedestrian lights start flashing a matter of seconds after they turn green. This clears the buildup waiting at the kerb but doesn't indulge latecomers. So the next time the green light comes the next lot are already waiting at the kerb ready to go.

In Australia we give too much indulgence to both vehicles and pedestrians coming in dribs and drabs from a distance rather than having them assembled at the lights already ready to go. Traffic management is not very sophisticated in Australia.
Linto63
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote: That general dawdling is a critical issue because it's what drags average speed (which is far more critical than maximum speed) down.
The effect of dawdling is fairly minimal, when trams sit for minutes at a time with nothing happening. Bolting to the next red light isn't going to have much of an affect on journey times.
tonyp wrote: I'm not sure that we can blame traffic lights so much any more as I understand that they're being ironed out quite well.
If it has been improved, then it has only moved from abysmal to poor. Pitt, Hay, Goulburn and Liverpool streets all have light phases where everybody (trams, cars and pedestrians) just sit around waiting for something to happen.
tonyp wrote: They need to check priority management in Gold Coast and Canberra which are very good. Pedestrians aren't really an issue.
The Gold Coast and Canberra already were a punish before light rail with very long traffic light phases courtesy of the Gold Coast Highway and Northbourne Avenue being very wide, so sliding in a light rail phase added relatively little in the overall time out for other traffic.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Jurassic_Joke »

Have noticed along L2, between Moore Park and Royal Randwick, some (temporary?) speed limit cuts have been implemented (yellow TSR signs, Temporary Speed Restriction), just like all over L1, was wondering why trams have been crawling between these stops. I mean, what gives, is it really the ‘fixed bogies’ aspect of the tram damaging the track I wonder?

Maybe for future projects or tram orders (looking at you, L1 growth trams) they need to bite the bullet and just try trams with pivoting bogies. What about Siemens Avenio, its the successor of the Siemens Combino that is in Melbourne. Last time I was in Europe, and well if we’ll ever be allowed to go there again, I found the Avenio rides very nicely as smooth as a cloud unlike the Combino and otherwise comfortable enough with good lighting and windows and I think that ones pivoting bogies, all that with the same nice engine sound of the Combino. Don’t know why TfNSW seems to restrict themselves to CAF and Alstom at the moment for suppliers, although 100% I’d take Alstom any day over CAF
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

I believe they are locked into a long term contract with Alstom for the CSE, so most unlikely we will see other brands there anytime soon. They already have a surplus of trams above traffic requirements, so not likely to be any more demand for a few years yet.

I've seen mention that CAF has been the low bidder on previous orders, so perhaps that will continue.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Jurassic_Joke wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:11 pm Have noticed along L2, between Moore Park and Royal Randwick, some (temporary?) speed limit cuts have been implemented (yellow TSR signs, Temporary Speed Restriction), just like all over L1, was wondering why trams have been crawling between these stops. I mean, what gives, is it really the ‘fixed bogies’ aspect of the tram damaging the track I wonder?

Maybe for future projects or tram orders (looking at you, L1 growth trams) they need to bite the bullet and just try trams with pivoting bogies. What about Siemens Avenio, its the successor of the Siemens Combino that is in Melbourne. Last time I was in Europe, and well if we’ll ever be allowed to go there again, I found the Avenio rides very nicely as smooth as a cloud unlike the Combino and otherwise comfortable enough with good lighting and windows and I think that ones pivoting bogies, all that with the same nice engine sound of the Combino. Don’t know why TfNSW seems to restrict themselves to CAF and Alstom at the moment for suppliers, although 100% I’d take Alstom any day over CAF
They will eventually find premature track damage (as they have in the past on IWLR) as a result of using trams with fixed bogies. It's inevitable in the long term, as are temporary speed limits imposed until repairs or replacement are done.

As boronia said, with CSELR they are locked into a contract with the trams and, as the trams have a life of up to 30 years, there's no chance of rectifying design deficiencies until they come up for replacement. Alstom came with the winning consortium, the other contender having withdrawn, so there was no chance of any alternative there. CAF came on the scene back in 2011 when TfNSW knew absolutely nothing about trams, having been basically an anti-tram agency for the previous 50 years. When expressions of interest were called for, CAF very smartly moved in with what seemed to a naive agency like a good offer and it went from there.

Both CAF and Alstom basically specialise in trams for new "light rail" systems which are typically planned with generous lengths of straight track (fitting the grids of a typical planned city layout) and few corners to turn and, where there are, these deliberately have pretty wide radii. Sydney is somewhat different on all three new tram systems, with plenty of twists and turns that slow the trams down and wear the track. The reason for those trams having fixed bogies is because they're cheaper to build, therefore helping them make lower bids and/or greater profit margins. Unlike the CSELR trams, however, with IWLR at least, TfNSW could at some stage stop buying CAF trams and look for a better design. This couldn't happen for a while either as the fleet will no doubt be sufficient once the tail end of the existing order is filled.

The major manufacturers (who dominate much of the European market) apart from Alstom and CAF are the three Ss - Siemens, Skoda and Stadler. All of these manufacture trams with proper swivelling bogies, which is generally the expectation on established systems there. It's this type of tram we should really have in Sydney, but that decision is going to rest with a future generation now.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

tonyp wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:13 pm In Australia we give too much indulgence to both vehicles and pedestrians coming in dribs and drabs from a distance rather than having them assembled at the lights already ready to go. Traffic management is not very sophisticated in Australia.
Short green WALK signs: " we haven't got enough time to cross the road before the dont walk comes on". Instead of explaining that is safe to keep going, they lengthen the green phase; this shortens the red phase and the late-comers do get caught out. That Harold Scruby is a great promoter of this "solution".

Flashing DONT WALK supposed to mean "don't leave the kerb, but you can continue if you are already on the crossing". But for most people it means "I'm 20 metres back from the crossing, so I'd better make a run for it to get across". This phase would be better eliminated and just go straight into a fixed red. Some Asian countries have this, but with a short flashing green first. I've driven a lot in the CBD, and quite often it has been impossible to make a left or right turn because the ped crossing is occupied for the entire green traffic phase; one vehicle might sneak through on the yellow if they are over the stop line.

There used to be a Road Rule that a pedestrian "must not cause a traffic hazard by moving into the path of a driver" or "unreasonably obstruct the path of a driver". This rule was redacted in a recent revision.

There is little hope of ever getting pedestrians to change their attitudes.
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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

HAYMARKET-CIRCULAR QUAY CAB RIDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik_NswsfoBI

I can't recall getting as clear a run as this previously.
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tonyp
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:22 pm HAYMARKET-CIRCULAR QUAY CAB RIDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik_NswsfoBI

I can't recall getting as clear a run as this previously.
The run was clear but still the same excruciating ambling. It's worth recalling that the former Sydney trams covered this section in the same time but with twice as many compulsory stops (virtually every block corner). Activity in George St here is far quieter than South Terrace, Fremantle but the speed limit is 10 km/h slower. I think it would cause no trouble to raise it to 30. You can feel the rough riding in that fixed bogie tram, it slams into every variation in the track direction, not to mention over points. To think this is the way tram technology started in the 19th century, then improved to the more sophisticated bogie tram in the 20th century, only to later revert to 19th century technology to save money for the manufacturer. Technologically, this tram (and the CAF) is an outdated pos but they've managed to impart a certain glamour to them to fool naive politicians and agencies. The tram counterpart to the low-entry bus - sort of half-way to modernity but not the full quid.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Merc1107 »

South Tce/Market St Fremantle, for comparison (looks like a quiet day. Pity there isn't a night video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NsqTQHj4HE
Those with sufficient interest could look up other videos to see what it looks like on a busier day.
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