CBD & South East Light Rail

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boronia
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

buzzkill wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:35 pm
And it will make the express buses faster when I take them, by getting rid of the all-stops buses along Moore Park Bwy.
It will be fun when an Anzac Pde X bus gets stuck behind a tram all the way to Allison Rd.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

In order not to produce a detrimental journey time compared to the buses, the tram needs to do the trip in 25-30 minutes and that's assuming no hiccups at the interchange. There is no way in the world that the tram will give bus commuters a value-added result at 38 minutes.

If you were only going to Central it would minimise the damage, then the further you go into the CBD the worse the discrepancy gets. On top of that, many commuters will be exchanging a seat for standing - bearable if it's a quick trip but not for a slow one. They and the local members are quite right to raise a stink about it. Poor service should never go unchallenged.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by buzzkill »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:10 pm In order not to produce a detrimental journey time compared to the buses, the tram needs to do the trip in 25-30 minutes and that's assuming no hiccups at the interchange. There is no way in the world that the tram will give bus commuters a value-added result at 38 minutes.
On top of that, many commuters will be exchanging a seat for standing - bearable if it's a quick trip but not for a slow one. They and the local members are quite right to raise a stink about it. Poor service should never go unchallenged.
The CQ-Randwick timetabled journey time on all-stops buses is barely 30 mins. even off-peak. Reality is often closer to 35mins.
So as a regular commuter I don't see 25-30 mins. journey time is necessary for LR to be time competitive at all. Considering the reliability and the central location (avoiding the trek to Elizabeth St.), even a total journey time of 35 mins. (and thus sub-25mins. from TH) will be a good improvement.

Seats: Light rail provides ~900 seats per hour per line per direction. This is equivalent to one bus every 3 minutes from City/Central towards Randwick - which is more than the current bus frequency except at peak. Even at peak, all-stops buses LR will replace will have similar total number of seats.
You can do the maths yourself.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

buzzkill wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:06 pm
The CQ-Randwick timetabled journey time on all-stops buses is barely 30 mins. even off-peak. Reality is often closer to 35mins.
So as a regular commuter I don't see 25-30 mins. journey time is necessary for LR to be time competitive at all. Considering the reliability and the central location (avoiding the trek to Elizabeth St.), even a total journey time of 35 mins. (and thus sub-25mins. from TH) will be a good improvement.

Seats: Light rail provides ~900 seats per hour per line per direction. This is equivalent to one bus every 3 minutes from City/Central towards Randwick - which is more than the current bus frequency except at peak. Even at peak, all-stops buses LR will replace will have similar total number of seats.
You can do the maths yourself.
From studying the timetables, I can see that the Randwick-CQ bus times (off peak/peak) are 27 - 33 minutes, which is close to your observed figures. That's still significantly ahead of 38 minutes. On top of that, unaccounted for in your conclusion is interchange time and as yet we don't know the average wait, but it would certainly be optimistic to assume that a commuter would, every day, be regularly able to step straight onto a departing tram or bus at the interchange. Sometimes (often?) they could be waiting up to 5-8 minutes. Whatever the interval, that needs to be added on top of the overall journey time for people travelling beyond the limits of the tram lines.

I wish they would start formally running the buses through both interchanges right now in order to assess commuter preferences whilst both modes are running in parallel. The sudden death approach does not have much going for it and will only raise the level of grievance. And peak period seats are more critical than off-peak seats where people would generally get a seat anyway on either mode. The relaxed attitude to standing that you see in the metro is thanks to its fast journey. The same tolerance is unlikely to be extended to the CSELR's protracted journey, which takes as long over 8.5 km as the metro takes to cover the 36 km between Tallawong and Chatswood.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by hornetfig »

buzzkill wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:35 pmAnd it will make the express buses faster when I take them, by getting rid of the all-stops buses along Moore Park Bwy.
Where do you get this impression that all stops buses are being removed entirely? There's huge gaps between tram stops, and huge areas of the Randwick branch that were within 400m of a bus stop but not a tram stop. These locations continue to require bus service.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by Fleet Lists »

They would become feeder services to the Light Rail.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by buzzkill »

tonyp wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:17 pm
From studying the timetables, I can see that the Randwick-CQ bus times (off peak/peak) are 27 - 33 minutes, which is close to your observed figures. That's still significantly ahead of 38 minutes. On top of that, unaccounted for in your conclusion is interchange time and as yet we don't know the average wait, but it would certainly be optimistic to assume that a commuter would, every day, be regularly able to step straight onto a departing tram or bus at the interchange. Sometimes (often?) they could be waiting up to 5-8 minutes. Whatever the interval, that needs to be added on top of the overall journey time for people travelling beyond the limits of the tram lines.

I wish they would start formally running the buses through both interchanges right now in order to assess commuter preferences whilst both modes are running in parallel. The sudden death approach does not have much going for it and will only raise the level of grievance. And peak period seats are more critical than off-peak seats where people would generally get a seat anyway on either mode. The relaxed attitude to standing that you see in the metro is thanks to its fast journey. The same tolerance is unlikely to be extended to the CSELR's protracted journey, which takes as long over 8.5 km as the metro takes to cover the 36 km between Tallawong and Chatswood.
I agree interchange can take 5-8 mins., but the added distance of walking from George St. to Elizabeth St., and often crossing 4-5 intersections with traffic lights, also takes 5-8 mins. or more, so it easily evens out. If a bus happens to make the timetabled distance, it may be a few mins. faster overall than LR, but I've seen them delayed too often.


LR seat capacity from City is the same as all-stops buses, even during peak. Here's an analysis (I've seen this before somewhere):
The following non-express buses operate CQ-Kingsford: 392, 394, 396, 397, 399, L94.

On a regular weekday timetable, between 6pm and 7pm, there are a total of 17 buses from these routes leaving CQ for Kingsford.
Let's assume generously that 7 of these are articulated, with 64 seats each, and 10 are regular, with 44 seats each: the total seats leaving CQ for Kingsford during 1 hour is 888.
There will be a tram with 120 seats leaving CQ for Kingsford every 8 minutes. This means on average 15 seats/min - or 900 seats between 6pm - 7pm.

Of course, this means that those boarding at Central may do without a seat, but that means a standing journey of 15-20mins. max. I don't see how it's different to Metro, or even train.

Hypocritical local members pretend noone will ever get a seat and most people will have to stand for a 35 min. journey, which is pure hogwash.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by hornetfig »

Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:12 pm They would become feeder services to the Light Rail.
So to where do Clovelly Rd services, or North Randwick services, or Anzac Pde infill services feed? There's no bus-tram interchange facilities outside the termini (and, less smoothly, UNSW Anzac Pde and Kensington Todman Ave)
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by buzzkill »

hornetfig wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:57 pm
Fleet Lists wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:12 pm They would become feeder services to the Light Rail.
So to where do Clovelly Rd services, or North Randwick services, or Anzac Pde infill services feed? There's no bus-tram interchange facilities outside the termini (and, less smoothly, UNSW Anzac Pde and Kensington Todman Ave)
339 is not impacted. It would still use the Moore Pk Bwy. So maybe local buses wouldn't be eliminated there entirely, but easily reduced by 70-80%.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boronia »

buzzkill wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:43 pm
LR seat capacity from City is the same as all-stops buses, even during peak. Here's an analysis (I've seen this before somewhere):
The following non-express buses operate CQ-Kingsford: 392, 394, 396, 397, 399, L94.

On a regular weekday timetable, between 6pm and 7pm, there are a total of 17 buses from these routes leaving CQ for Kingsford.
Let's assume generously that 7 of these are articulated, with 64 seats each, and 10 are regular, with 44 seats each: the total seats leaving CQ for Kingsford during 1 hour is 888.
There will be a tram with 120 seats leaving CQ for Kingsford every 8 minutes. This means on average 15 seats/min - or 900 seats between 6pm - 7pm.
6-7 pm is the tail end of the peak. How many buses on those routes between, say, 4.30 to 5.30? There will be the same number of trams though.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by buzzkill »

boronia wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:29 pm
buzzkill wrote: Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:43 pm
LR seat capacity from City is the same as all-stops buses, even during peak. Here's an analysis (I've seen this before somewhere):
The following non-express buses operate CQ-Kingsford: 392, 394, 396, 397, 399, L94.

On a regular weekday timetable, between 6pm and 7pm, there are a total of 17 buses from these routes leaving CQ for Kingsford.
Let's assume generously that 7 of these are articulated, with 64 seats each, and 10 are regular, with 44 seats each: the total seats leaving CQ for Kingsford during 1 hour is 888.
There will be a tram with 120 seats leaving CQ for Kingsford every 8 minutes. This means on average 15 seats/min - or 900 seats between 6pm - 7pm.
6-7 pm is the tail end of the peak. How many buses on those routes between, say, 4.30 to 5.30? There will be the same number of trams though.
You can check timetable to see the # of all-stops buses is pretty similar then, too.
6-7pm is fairly peak, and it's when the all-stops buses pull most of the burden as the express buses finish, whereas between 4.30pm and 5.30pm many buses running are express.

And off-peak, not even a comparison..
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boxythingy »

Light Rail vehicle involved in traffic accident this afternoon
Image
A petrol operated vehicle seems to have knocked over a traffic light too
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by boeing »

Bad day (again) for the light rail because as well as the above, a car crashed into it on the South Dowling crossing this morning (again, although in this case the opposite direction to last time).
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

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boxythingy wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:08 pm Light Rail vehicle involved in traffic accident this afternoon
I got caught up in the city by the afternoon incident. PIDs were showing L3 services to Juniors, but trams were displaying L2 MOORE PARK and terminating there. No messages about the problem. Interestingly, the returns of these short workings back to the city were showing L3 JUNIORS destinations.

So I caught an L2 to the Racecourse and walked back to Anzac Pde. There were people waiting at the ES Marks stop, but the PID screens were blank with no indication that services were not running.

I'd gone into the city about 14:30 from Marks. When I got there, the next inbound service was due in 3 minutes. I checked the outbound stop.the PID said next service 20 minutes, but it turned up out 20 seconds later. It was held there for about a minute, then after it left the next service was now 18 minutes. But it turned up about 30 seconds later. I went back to the inbound PID which now showed my service was still 5 minutes away, with following services in 7 and 12 minutes. When I got off at Chalmers St, it showed the next service was another L3 just 1 minute behind, but as the tram left it became 10 minutes away with an L2 jumping in between. If they can't get this right, no wonder they won't publish RTD for apps.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by J_Busworth »

At this stage, the bus changes are off in the never never and many people seem to be happily returning back to their buses, with some smaller number moving over to the tram.

In terms of the travel time debate, I'm still not entirely impressed with the tram but it is much better than what it was. Randwick Junction to Chifley Square is being achieved by the express buses at the moment in around 15 minutes, and the tram will never be able to beat that.

We need to remember that people come from all across different parts of the city to join services, not everyone works on or around George Street. if you are working on Philip Street, Macquarie Street, Castlereagh Street or heaven forbid Elizabeth Street, the walk to George Street will prove prohibitive when currently buses leave in close proximity to their offices. Similarly, at the other end people aren't going to magically disappear when they get off the tram. They need to interchange and on current frequencies that can mean a lengthy wait for some, particularly given just how unreliable the tram is.

I've worked out the best stop for me to Interchange with the tram at is at Randwick Racecourse. Its about a 400m walk from the light rail stop to the bus stop at the corner of Darley Road and Alison Road. That 5 minute walk negates the five minutes I save walking from Sussex Street to Elizabeth Street. (Its a similarly inconvenient walk for pretty much any other interchange) Then I have to wait for the bus, which may be up to 29 minutes away because the light rail is so unpredictable. Google Maps provides lots of suggestions from my work - 339, 374, X39, X74, T4 then 313, T4 then 400, but never the light rail.

The 339 and 374 obviously are the outliers as they don't really feed into the light rail, but the problem is that the situation I experience is the same across lots of routes that do feed into the light rail. Poorly designed interchanges and slower travel times just don't cut it for a state of the art tram line.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

There are generally no convenient bus-tram interchanges anywhere along the lines. I was surprised particularly that they didn't provide a bus stop alongside the Moore Park stop. I think they need to start running buses through the Kingsford interchange and set up the bus stop at the corner of Avoca and High to at least enable interchange and it will also provide an indication of how many want to interchange. I suspect they're not because many won't interchange and that won't be a good look. It suggests that they may use the sudden death approach on a specific date and then weather the backlash. I find it difficult to think that they would give up on the bus replacement objective altogether. On the other side of the coin, they can readily end the UNSW and SB&GHS shuttles and I'm surprised if they haven't yet.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by moa999 »

Well they did build a massive new Bus Interchange at Moore Park, but its not exactly convenient to the Light Rail, and has hardly been used given the LR opened about a month after the interchange was complete
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by mubd »

moa999 wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:36 pm Well they did build a massive new Bus Interchange at Moore Park, but its not exactly convenient to the Light Rail, and has hardly been used given the LR opened about a month after the interchange was complete
It's almost like there's a global pandemic going on or something
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

While at Randwick/Kingsford today I observed that the kerbside lane in Avoca at the corner of High that had been earmarked for an inward interchange bus stop has been converted to a slip lane for Belmore Road. I suspect that a service restructure for interchange at Randwick is now dead in the water. They can hardly abandon those monumental bus platforms at Kingsford though, so it's wait and see there. I can't understand why they don't run the buses through those platforms already. It must be a political decision.

It's obvious that the control room slows the trams to keep to the slow timetable by various techniques including holding at stops and slowing down to miss green lights. There is no doubt that Central to Randwick could be done in 10 minutes if they were serious about it, but the time is in the contract so nothing will be done about it.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:34 pm I can't understand why they don't run the buses through those platforms already. It must be a political decision.
It took a while for buses to use the Haymarket stop interchange but they're using it now so, in time I have no doubt buses will be using the interchanges soon. Maybe enquire with the relevant powers about it rather than pondering and moaning online...
tonyp wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:34 pm There is no doubt that Central to Randwick could be done in 10 minutes if they were serious about it, but the time is in the contract so nothing will be done about it.
10 MINUTES?! You seriously expected the trams to run between Central to Randwick/Kingsford in 10 MINUTES?! HAAAAAAAAAAAAH-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA..... Oh honey, it makes so much sense to me now! See I'm quite satisfied with the 20 minutes trams currently do between these destinations but you? You REALLY had your expectations set FAR too high. Here's the reality: there is NO WAY trams will EVER get to run between Central and Randwick/Kingsford in 10 Minutes; not in this day and age in this state. The way the roads operate - especially in the inner city - with all the bureaucracy etc, they would never allow that to happen! And this isn't a thing that just affects the trams; ALL traffic is made to go slow nowadays. Sure buses and cars do currently run faster but that's only on a rare good day; rest of the time it's just mountains of congestion and constant stop-starting and slow crawls. And comparing the three modes, I of course would choose the tram; at least they have loads of space and are good people movers compared to the other options. So in that way, the trams succeed. And it's why I still believe the trams will replace the current bus services and yes it probably will be slower. But you know what? They're probably gonna make the buses that run afterwards operate slower as well, so as to make the trams look good in comparison. Generally public transport has been operating at much slower speeds than it has in decades past and that's not changing anytime soon. And honestly? I could not care less. Life's moving too fast anyway; we all need to ease up on the fast paced, work heavy lifestyles everyone is forced to have and go a little slower. If transports gonna run slower, then life can adjust to that and everyone can relax and have a breather. I know I'm sounding like a nutty hippy right now making no sense but at this point, I'm just questioning why this all even matters! We're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic that's turning everyone's live's on their head and yet you and other anally retentive keyboard warrior gunzels are just being completely tightassed over a simple tram operation that isn't even that bad compared to what it once was, and may continue to improve in the future. Just because it's in the contract to run at 38 minutes doesn't mean it's binding; it can be changed. For all we know they actually could get it to run down to 30 minutes overall; I wouldn't put it past Howard Collins to use his influence to do whatever he can to make trams king again; he is one of us after all. I guess what I'm trying to say is........ get a life.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

Yep, every public transport system needs a mediocrity advocate for sure. I'll tell you how you work out that this trip could be done in 10 minutes:
1. You look at the distance, number of stops, operating environment, empirical real-life equivalent examples elsewhere.
2. You factor in traffic light priority.
3. You observe the actual progress of the tram along the ride, aggregating the detrimental factors that arise during the trip relative to the distance travelled.

If 2 isn't so good, you could fall back to 15 minutes but no worse.

The underlying fact is that a journey time was negotiated and then embodied in the contract and there is no obligation by the operator to improve on that. When some drivers do their human thing and get the tram progressing along the route a little more quickly, the control room checks it. Collins isn't going to have any influence over that.

Unfortunately, the outcome of that is that the tram doesn't have a competitive journey time to produce a value-added alternative to buses for commuters, notably for those living and working beyond the route. Go hop on board random SE buses and tell the passengers that they're living life too fast, I'm sure they'll appreciate the advice.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by J_Busworth »

STMPainter2018 wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:28 am Just because it's in the contract to run at 38 minutes doesn't mean it's binding; it can be changed. For all we know they actually could get it to run down to 30 minutes overall;
Transdev is known for running trams (and other forms of transport) very slowly. If they can make something slower, they will. I'm actually genuinely surprised they haven't petitioned to be allowed to run the trams slower than 38 minutes on a permanent basis.
STMPainter2018 wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:28 am See I'm quite satisfied with the 20 minutes trams currently do between these destinations but you? You REALLY had your expectations set FAR too high. Here's the reality: there is NO WAY trams will EVER get to run between Central and Randwick/Kingsford in 10 Minutes; not in this day and age in this state.
I'd say you are probably right there. 10 minutes is a tad bit fast (it would make us world best!). Based on the current running conditions, traffic light priority and other factors, I think 15 minutes would be right on the money. Anything less just suggests excess dwell and trams running deliberately slowly to slow down the trip. 30 minutes end to end on both branches is very achievable in the current operating circumstances and it would be a major blow if we cant achieve that - but I think you'd need Keolis or John Holland running the show.
tonyp wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:34 pm While at Randwick/Kingsford today I observed that the kerbside lane in Avoca at the corner of High that had been earmarked for an inward interchange bus stop has been converted to a slip lane for Belmore Road. I suspect that a service restructure for interchange at Randwick is now dead in the water. They can hardly abandon those monumental bus platforms at Kingsford though, so it's wait and see there. I can't understand why they don't run the buses through those platforms already. It must be a political decision.
They wanted to start running buses through the terminal as part of the bus changes, to avoid confusion of having two very major changes in quick succession. The bus changes have now been indefinitely deferred (and supposedly the implementation team has moved on to the next set of major changes proposed) so I agree that buses should now be diverted into the interchange at Kingsford.

In relation to Randwick, I was mortified to see the kerbside lane which had been set aside for a bus stop become a slip turning lane. Two reasons; One, it decreases the likelihood of there ever being a bus stop there. Two, to means that the buses no longer go on the most favourable angle for the morning sun so its harder to get a good photograph

I guess I can go back and complain to my local member again, but I think Marjorie is well aware of the problems and has made them known.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

J_Busworth wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:40 am - but I think you'd need Keolis or John Holland running the show.
.............

They wanted to start running buses through the terminal as part of the bus changes, to avoid confusion of having two very major changes in quick succession. The bus changes have now been indefinitely deferred (and supposedly the implementation team has moved on to the next set of major changes proposed) so I agree that buses should now be diverted into the interchange at Kingsford.

In relation to Randwick, I was mortified to see the kerbside lane which had been set aside for a bus stop become a slip turning lane. Two reasons; One, it decreases the likelihood of there ever being a bus stop there. Two, to means that the buses no longer go on the most favourable angle for the morning sun so its harder to get a good photograph

I guess I can go back and complain to my local member again, but I think Marjorie is well aware of the problems and has made them known.
By John Holland for Canberra you actually mean Deutsch Bahn, the operator. Canberra is run by Germans. No further explanation needed. Gold Coast runs well, not because of Keolis, but because Queensland DoT is at the intellectual opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to trams compared to TfNSW. The time is quick because DoT insisted on it and the operator had to comply. TfNSW, on the other hand, asked the operator what sort of running time they'd like.

I'd say the slip lane replaced the bus stop at Randwick as a result of the hammering they are getting from Marjorie! And as we all know, once you put in an extra road lane for traffic, it's the devil to try to take it away again. I suspect interchange at Randwick is dead. So much for the bus savings.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by marcnut1996 »

Canberra light rail is run by CMET, a join venture of John Holland and CIMIC.
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Re: CBD & South East Light Rail

Post by tonyp »

marcnut1996 wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:58 pm Canberra light rail is run by CMET, a join venture of John Holland and CIMIC.
.... in partnership with DB Engineering and Consulting. The chief operations officer is a German tram person.
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