CBD & South East Light Rail

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boronia
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Wouldn't exiting the paid area at Chalmers St simply result in a "tap-off-reversed"?

Alternative would be to walk down to Rawson Place, it's shorter.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Reo »

Going back to my original question....why weren't L1/L2 routed through the Concourse ? Would it create traffic nightmares, not feasible on the Concourse itself ….or just all too hard ??

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

While waiting for the timetable to appear, I have revisited the subject of running time that I originally studied some years ago. From that time, using services elsewhere in Australia and the world running in similar conditions, priority and similar number of stops, I found that CSELR trams should cover the 8.5 km with 12 intermediate compulsory stops between CQ and Randwick in no more than 25 minutes. I just decided to check in on the current situation with Budapest's Line 4 ("Grand Boulevard route") which is an extremely busy operation (one of the busiest in the world), running in similar conditions with 55 metre trams and headways as close as 2-3 minutes (restricted by two track stub terminus at each end). It's very similar in characteristic, except for being entirely on road, also happens to be 8.5 km, with 17 intermediate compulsory stops and it does the trip in 29 minutes.

The old Sydney tram system didn't have a CQ to Randwick route via Central, but adding a CQ to Central trip to a Central to Randwick trip (slightly different parallel route between Darley Rd and High Cross), the combined journey time was about 35 minutes - but with more than 30 compulsory stops! Tram speed is not a signifcant issue as it is average speed that is the critical consideration. Nevertheless it can be noted that CSELR trams are allowed the highest maximum speeds (in sections) among these examples. I'm looking forward to see what sort of magic TfNSW can weave. I have noticed looking at the L1 timetable lately, that they seem to have notched up the average speed a bit to improve the old absymal performance and the end to end journey time is now close to 35 minutes for the 13 km (21 intermediate stops) which is edging closer to ballpark.
Last edited by tonyp on Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Reo wrote:Going back to my original question....why weren't L1/L2 routed through the Concourse ? Would it create traffic nightmares, not feasible on the Concourse itself ….or just all too hard ??

Reo
The connection from L2 to L1 at Hay St could not be made a direct facing turn bcause the curvature would be too tight, trams have to trail in from the north. The same problem would exist trying to get the L2 in or out of Hay St to access the Colonnade. Also it would require a second track in the Colonnade, which is not feasible.

Nothing has been lost from existing bus-train connections at Central with the new layouts.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

tonyp wrote:I'm looking forward to see what sort of magic TfNSW can weave.
Don't worry Tony, I am sure you will find plenty to complain about with endless comparisons back to the 1950s, Eastern Europe etc and how hopeless TfNSW are because they didn't take your advice.
Reo wrote:Going back to my original question....why weren't L1/L2 routed through the Concourse ? Would it create traffic nightmares, not feasible on the Concourse itself ….or just all too hard ??
If I am correct in thinking that the suggestion is that L2/L3 should have joined the existing L1 at the corner of George and Hay Sts and then done a loop up to Central before continuing east along Hay St before turning south into Elizabeth, then it would have been a massive bottleneck.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Linto63 wrote:Don't worry Tony, I am sure you will find plenty to complain about with endless comparisons back to the 1950s, Eastern Europe etc and how hopeless TfNSW are because they didn't take your advice.
Actually it's more than an academic issue. Because it's replacing bus journeys and connecting with feeders, it's important that users don't have a poorer experience than they had on the direct buses, particularly journey time. With feeders - and trams at the outer ends only every 8 minutes or less - it's important that somebody who just misses a tram connection or vice versa doesn't have their journey time stretched out to eternity. You yourself noted a bus journey that's quicker a few posts ago.

I didn't study any Eastern European operations because the data is difficult to obtain, but I did look at Prague (where the matching journey took 21-23 minutes) and Budapest (mentioned above). However, the main benchmark for my conclusions was right here locally at Gold Coast where the 8.3 km trip through the most congested part (Broadbeach South to Southport) takes 24 minutes with two less intermediate stops (10). This is where the 25 minutes comes from, but I would allow up to 30 to be generous. 35 minutes would be very poor and I would consider 40 minutes a complete operational failure, especially considering that they have chosen (at great cost) to facilitate the operation with traffic priority. Lets hope it doesn't come to that.

Edit: I need to quaify this by mentioning that I am referring to the ultimate timetable after the system has been settled down and tuned in coming months. It's starting off at a 50 minute journey initially for safety reasons, though this is being overly cautious. The next tune should be after L3 starts, which is a reasonable expectation.
Last edited by tonyp on Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by hornetfig »

moa999 wrote:Isn't there still a proposal for a full diverging diamond and Allison?
That's a grade separated interchange. The Moore Park-Alexandria corridor upgrade proposed an at grade continuous flow intersection (for some movements anyway). But that's not in the "phase 1" upgrade plan now.

Constructing the continuous flow intersection as designed would actually now gridlock the area because of substantial new queuing for Alison Rd EB onto Darley Rd EB (mentioned above) and Anzac Pde NB onto Lang Rd EB caused by traffic light changes from the CSELR. Basically it's back to the drawing board for that area, I think.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Escape lane for buses to get off the tram tracks just prior to Dacey Ave.

It is designated a "24 hr bus only lane", but the only notification is a sign on the l/h footpath a couple of hundred mtres back, partly obscured by trees.
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Needless to say most cars in the r/h lane just continue straight ahead over the dividing line.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Merc1107 »

boronia wrote:Needless to say most cars in the r/h lane just continue straight ahead over the dividing line.
The solution to that is bollards or a curb. Not necessarily ideal if drivers have issues driving around obstacles, but a more favourable solution than brain-dead zombies in cars driving straight into the side of a bus exiting the tram tracks. Something smarter might be number plate recognition cameras (like in Car Parks), or even something that photographs all vehicles and filters out licit vehicle movements, while issuing fines to the rest... Unfortunately the authorities are too interested in people doing 0.000000000001km/h over the speed limit :roll:
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

The "gubmen" has an awful lot of faith for the lowest common denominator private car driver if they think a painted line is that sacrosanct to them.
I had to exercise extreme caution north bound on Anzac Pde through Todman Ave when they had the lane guides shift to one side. Cars would just continue as usual to the lane across the other side, disregarding the broken line angling toward the correct lane. An elderly driver would have run into me one time if I hadn't anticipated.
What I'm trying to say is painted lines diverting in a sharp angle is a recipe for a prang with the sheer amounts of dills the authorities allow to be at the controls of a car.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

It might help if they put down some red bus lane topping, and put the sign where it might have some chance of being seen and interpreted correctly.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by aussiedrum »

I have been making a few YouTube videos of the light rail tram testing some of you may find interesting, my latest upload is Part 8 recorded on the 5 December. Watching tram movements around Circular quay and continuing down George St and finishing up at central. I also have parts 1-7 of the tram testing taken over the last few months on my youtube channel some of you may enjoy.

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTY5hxuoWKQ

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

boronia wrote:It might help if they put down some red bus lane topping, and put the sign where it might have some chance of being seen and interpreted correctly.
I never realised that ATDB had so much influence. Today's view:
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Obviously no BMWs or Merc's around when I took the pic.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

It's still too sharp and needs PHYSICAL barriers of some sort, even those flappy black and yellow things that stick out if the road.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by mubd »

The red paint has done so much to the illegal use of the bus lane. One day basically it was treated like a standard traffic lane, pop down some red and everyone stays out of it.

You see the same thing on Victoria Road between peak times - the bus lane may be legally used by general traffic, but illiterates see red and think 'red = not for me', ignore all the signage and sit in the traffic jammed lanes while I zip past them. Might as well call it a 'literate driver lane'.

I think the entrances to tram/bus lanes on Anzac Parade should also be painted red at all potential places where idiots can enter them by accident for the same reason. They do it in the Gold Coast - why not here?

Heck, paint all transit lanes red while we're at it. And right lanes on motorways so the scum who have no concept of 'keep left unless overtaking' don't use them.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by matthewg »

mubd wrote: You see the same thing on Victoria Road between peak times - the bus lane may be legally used by general traffic, but illiterates see red and think 'red = not for me', ignore all the signage and sit in the traffic jammed lanes while I zip past them. Might as well call it a 'literate driver lane'.
Not a good idea to water down any perception that a red-painted surface is bus-only all the time.

The people 'in the know' who drive on the red bus lane on Victoria road regularly will get into the habit of doing it everywhere. From then it spreads in time, not being sure of the time. Then there are the people who never read any sign, see you using the red bus lane on Victoria rd and then start doing it everywhere.

Can you honestly say you read every road advisory sign every time? (Maybe you do, but I doubt this is normal for the average joe)

Part-time bus lanes should be pink or something, but not red.
I'd paint the tram lanes lime green or something too, to make them contrasted different. (Can't be red, might end up with a bus somewhere it shouldn't)
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

I think we'd be the pinnacle of sophistication with road marking compared to the Victorians. Just after I read these posts I happened to see this video. Look at the road markings, the position of the tram tracks and the movement of the cars and tram in the opening scene after 0:15 secs. I wonder how often they get cars slamming into the side of trams?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLqSApf ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

There is also the annoyance of drivers who believe they can't use the red bus lanes (whether active or not) to make a left hand turn into a side street or driveway and hold up the traffic; I'll bet there have been lots of accidents where drivers have turned across the path of a bus at a stop as it decides to pullout.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

boronia wrote:There is also the annoyance of drivers who believe they can't use the red bus lanes (whether active or not) to make a left hand turn into a side street or driveway and hold up the traffic; I'll bet there have been lots of accidents where drivers have turned across the path of a bus at a stop as it decides to pullout.
I think it is counter-intuitive to turn into a bus lane to turn a corner. Try getting accustomed to it after several months driving in Europe where you strictly can't do that! To remove any ambiguity, bus lanes shoukd be regarded the same as a tram lane and the road marked accordingly.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by hornetfig »

boronia wrote:
boronia wrote:It might help if they put down some red bus lane topping, and put the sign where it might have some chance of being seen and interpreted correctly.
I never realised that ATDB had so much influence. Today's view:
DSC04260 (Small).jpeg
Obviously no BMWs or Merc's around when I took the pic.
Back to the future with that right bus lane... Anyway, it ends at the intersection so does the 100m rule apply?

The tram depot entrance intersection on Alison Rd also got cross hatching from the road marking fairies overnight.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Presumably you refer to the 100m allowance to make a left turn, which would not apply here.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

The bus lane sign might be confusing because it shows 3 lanes of traffic with a continuous B lane, but not a diversion of the other two lanes. Other signs in this area identify the tram line as a third traffic lane, rather than a separate right of way.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

The new tram-bus interchange in Rawson Place now looks completed.
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Will buses now set down and terminate in Pitt St behind the church (for inbound transfers) and hook left into Rawson to pick up?
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Re: New bus network arising from CSELR (L2/L3) opening

Post by Michael Bamborough »

tonyp wrote:TfNSW is saying on Facebook (SLR) today that the bus changes will not take place until 4-6 weeks after opening of L3 branch in March, after monitoring the impact of the tram on travel patterns followed by community update on a new bus plan. There will be a $2 discount on adult Opal and contactless fares for interchanging between bus and tram.
Hey wait a minute! They told us there would be no extra fee when changing between the buses and the south east light rail. That better be a typo or a miscommunication going on here or there's gonna be trouble!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by gld59 »

boronia wrote:There is also the annoyance of drivers who believe they can't use the red bus lanes (whether active or not) to make a left hand turn into a side street or driveway and hold up the traffic; I'll bet there have been lots of accidents where drivers have turned across the path of a bus at a stop as it decides to pullout.
Are there any other jurisdictions (anywhere) which have both bus lanes and bus only lanes? (Even a jurisdiction which uses more than a single word to distinguish them?) Does the one at Parramatta, going north from the underpass east of the Westfield interchange, still swap back and forth between them? What's worse, some (mainly around North Sydney) are marked as one type on the signs and the other type on the road surface. :roll:
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